Best Planet Of The Apes sequel?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Christopher wrote:

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Escape implied that those events were a considerable distance in the future -- naturally, since it would've taken time to breed the apes into the more humanoid form we see.

I read once that there was a subplot (or maybe just one scene, like a character reading a book or something) which was cut from the original film, and which would have placed the 'ape holocaust' at several centuries into our future, like the 26th or 27th centuries. Most people assume that it happened in the present, but there's no real proof of that.

[RJDiogenes]

^^ I think there was a scene like that in the first episode of the TV show.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

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That being said: What's everyone's opinion on the theory that the original POTA films establish a closed time loop?

I'd buy a closed time loop that changes a bit on each pass; that would or could explain many of the timeline contradictions.

Christopher wrote:

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That's just an example of what makes it hard for me to see the five films as one epic story. None of them, save the last, was designed with a sequel in mind. So each film had to retcon the rules of the previous film in order to justify its existence. In the original, there was no time warp; Taylor and his men were just in hibernation for thousands of years, maybe time-dilated by their velocity, but either way just in suspended animation. Beneath had to retcon that into a time warp to justify a second ship coming to the same future.

Well, it was certainly a messy epic. Aside from the problems with Escape, the thing that bothers me the most is the evolution of the time dilation to a time warp to a two-way time warp (and in the show there was no suspended animation at all). While I consider the first film Grade-A, I look at the whole thing collectively as a B-Movie-- lots of fun, but with damaging plot holes and contradictions and inconsistent production values.

[Christopher]

RJDonner&Blitzen wrote:

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I'd buy a closed time loop that changes a bit on each pass; that would or could explain many of the timeline contradictions.

But doesn't that contradict the definition of a closed time loop? If it's closed, that means it's a fixed causal loop that just cycles back to its own beginning. What you're describing is more of an open loop, a "helix" with each time travel creating a new parallel path.

Well, it was certainly a messy epic. Aside from the problems with Escape, the thing that bothers me the most is the evolution of the time dilation to a time warp to a two-way time warp (and in the show there was no suspended animation at all). While I consider the first film Grade-A, I look at the whole thing collectively as a B-Movie-- lots of fun, but with damaging plot holes and contradictions and inconsistent production values.

Yeah, the first film is a classic (although it certainly has its own conceptual flaws, like the apes speaking English and the implausibly rapid evolution), while the other four are collectively a lesser accomplishment, although Escape and Conquest have some effective social satire/critique.

[RJDiogenes]

Christopher wrote:

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But doesn't that contradict the definition of a closed time loop? If it's closed, that means it's a fixed causal loop that just cycles back to its own beginning. What you're describing is more of an open loop, a "helix" with each time travel creating a new parallel path.

I suppose, since such a thing doesn't exist in real life, it depends on how time behaves in the context of a particular work of fiction. An orbit is a closed loop, but it can oscillate and change over time. If your concept of time is "wibbly wobbly timey wimey" enough, you could have a closed loop that is a little different on every pass.

[cooleddie74]

Time is a funny thing in science fiction. How it behaves depends entirely on the author or scriptwriter and how they want time to behave within the context of their own stories.

Look at the new Abrams timeline in the Trek franchise. In the Roddenberry and B&B eras a radically altered timeline would have been repaired by either our heroes to set things right or by time-traveling "temporal cops" from the future who monitor the flow of history to make sure nobody's screwing with things. It might have taken a two- or three-part episode to correct things and return the known universe to the way it was, but it was done and our heroes went back to the bridges of their starships or space station and relaxed.

Now we have what appears to be a permanent or at least semi-permanent new temporal events sequence that takes place parallel to the Prime/original timeline of Trek and one - it appears - no Federation timeship from the 29th, 30th or 31st century is in any rush to correct.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

SantaEddie74 wrote:

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Look at the new Abrams timeline in the Trek franchise. In the Roddenberry and B&B eras a radically altered timeline would have been repaired by either our heroes to set things right or by time-traveling "temporal cops" from the future

No one in the 'prime' timeline knows that the Abrams timeline even exists. They have no idea where Spock Prime and Nero went. From their point of view, both men simply vanished. Can't repair a timeline that they don't know exists...

[cooleddie74]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

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No one in the 'prime' timeline knows that the Abrams timeline even exists. They have no idea where Spock Prime and Nero went. From their point of view, both men simply vanished. Can't repair a timeline that they don't know exists...

There's the theory that the unique qualities of the Red Matter black hole/singularity masked Nero's arrival in 2233 and the changes made to history so nobody from the distant future could detect the alterations with their temporal sensor equipment, but that's just more technobabble really. Who knows what the "real" in-universe explanation might be.

Maybe Braxton and Daniels were in the men's room when it happened and never took notice?

[Enterprise is Great]

I think that the Star Trek time cops really only care about timeline changes that affect them in their own time period.

[Tom]

I have to re watch those films again. I did like the recent 'Rise of the Planet of the Apes' and look forward to 'Dawn of the Planet of the Apes'. The new 'smart ape' evolution (and revolution) in the wake of a new global pandemic seems alot more plausable.

BTW, shouldn't this be in the scifi section?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Enterprise is Great wrote:

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I think that the Star Trek time cops really only care about timeline changes that affect them in their own time period.

There's a line in one of Christopher's DTI novels that mentions Daniels and his people "isolating" a timeline. Specifically:

the one featuring the aborted new animated series, with the explosion of Omega molecules which tore the Federation in half and made much of the quadrant impassable to warp drive.

Maybe they did that with this one as well.

[Christopher]

^No, I offered a different explanation for the Abramsverse there. Basically my DTI-novel temporal-physics model is that an altered timeline tends to collapse together with its original only if there is a 2-way exchange of matter, energy, or information between them, causing them to be mutually quantum-entangled and thus drawn together. If the exchange of mass/energy is only one-way -- as, for instance, via passage through a black hole -- then there is no collapse and the timelines can coexist, although the altered timeline has a one-way entanglement with the original and its events may thus be influenced to unfold in a similar way.

But what does this have to do with Planet of the Apes again?

[Steve Mollmann]

Christopher wrote:

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I remember seeing a special about the POTA movies some years ago, and I'm pretty sure they said that Battle was the only movie written with a sequel in mind. Certainly the ending of Escape was meant to be ominous, to show that the seeds of the apocalyptic future had been sown, but as I said, I think the idea there was that it would be many generations down the road, not just a couple of decades as the next movie had it.

That's correct, from the film itself. Cornelius's testimony in Escape puts the ape uprising generations after his presence on Earth.

They replay some of that testimony in Battle, but snip the time indications out of it.

[Christopher]

You know, that's one reason the new POTA films intrigue me. We may finally get a series of POTA movies that actually do form a cohesive continuity instead of just pretending to.

Although the time-loop structure of the original POTA films has created the unique situation where the reboot of the franchise was essentially a loose remake of the fourth film rather than the first. And I wonder how much Dawn will have in common with Battle.

[RJDiogenes]

I wonder if they'll ever reach a point equivalent to the original movie.

[Guy Gardener]

That they launch Charlton Heston into space never to return in our lifetimes, crowing "Smell you later asshole!" while giving his ship the finger as it climbs towards the heavens?

Yes.

I can totally see that happening.