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Old December 10 2012, 07:32 AM   #91
The Overlord
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Re: How many reset buttons?

exodus wrote: View Post
Comparing X-Files to Star Trek is like comparing Buck Rodgers to Supernatural
There are differences, but X-Files proved that an ongoing story can work in a TV show.

exodus wrote: View Post
Chakotay destroyed their ship, remember?
So they had no supplies, no food, no place to sleep & no weapons.
Someone honest is offering them all of that and more as long as the do an honest days work...........and this person still needs to gain you're trust?
They were never treated as political prisoners or enemies. Why bite the hand that's feeding you considering you have no other options?
You're 75 thousand light years from home with nothing to your name. What's more important, your political views or a hot plate of food? Isn't that more believable?l
Just because Chakoty and the Maquis don't have much of a choice doesn't mean they have to be happy about. There should have been more resistance and push back against Star Fleet regulations and frankly I think a lot of the Maquis would blame Janeway for being stranded in the DQ. What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict? It makes Janeway look like a total Mary Sue if all those Maquis people will simply defer to her right away.
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Old December 10 2012, 10:15 AM   #92
lurok
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Re: How many reset buttons?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
... You know the DS9 reset button that really pisses me off still every moment of my life, the first two episodes of season seven, have some really interesting introductions of Dax to all and sundry and then some absolute conflict with worf and I'm waiting for some escalation the next week, but in stead it's Take me out to the Holodeck and they're all buddies playing baseball.

Of course some bile did ooze up 3/4s of a season later after Ezi and Worf slept together.
So true. Bar that run of final episodes, I don't think DS9 S7 that great.

The Overlord wrote: View Post
...Janeway should have work harder to gain the trust of her crew then Picard or kirk, considering a quarter of her crew is Maquis, that should have a story arc.
The writers/showrunners should have tried harder but I did feel there was a sense in first seasons of crew trying to bond. That one with Tuvox and the three Maquis recalcitrants, the mutiny holoprogram, and later Suder.
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Old December 10 2012, 05:26 PM   #93
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Re: How many reset buttons?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Comparing X-Files to Star Trek is like comparing Buck Rodgers to Supernatural
There are differences, but X-Files proved that an ongoing story can work in a TV show.

exodus wrote: View Post
Chakotay destroyed their ship, remember?
So they had no supplies, no food, no place to sleep & no weapons.
Someone honest is offering them all of that and more as long as the do an honest days work...........and this person still needs to gain you're trust?
They were never treated as political prisoners or enemies. Why bite the hand that's feeding you considering you have no other options?
You're 75 thousand light years from home with nothing to your name. What's more important, your political views or a hot plate of food? Isn't that more believable?l
Just because Chakoty and the Maquis don't have much of a choice doesn't mean they have to be happy about. There should have been more resistance and push back against Star Fleet regulations and frankly I think a lot of the Maquis would blame Janeway for being stranded in the DQ. What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict? It makes Janeway look like a total Mary Sue if all those Maquis people will simply defer to her right away.

yeah, I agree with this second point. The fact that Janeway basically stranded all these people out there should have served as more of a source of conflict. Instead, except for a few episodes, it was largely forgotten so they could show everyone on the ship falling in line behind the captain.
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Old December 10 2012, 05:48 PM   #94
Trekker82
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Re: How many reset buttons?

sonak wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Comparing X-Files to Star Trek is like comparing Buck Rodgers to Supernatural
There are differences, but X-Files proved that an ongoing story can work in a TV show.

exodus wrote: View Post
Chakotay destroyed their ship, remember?
So they had no supplies, no food, no place to sleep & no weapons.
Someone honest is offering them all of that and more as long as the do an honest days work...........and this person still needs to gain you're trust?
They were never treated as political prisoners or enemies. Why bite the hand that's feeding you considering you have no other options?
You're 75 thousand light years from home with nothing to your name. What's more important, your political views or a hot plate of food? Isn't that more believable?l
Just because Chakoty and the Maquis don't have much of a choice doesn't mean they have to be happy about. There should have been more resistance and push back against Star Fleet regulations and frankly I think a lot of the Maquis would blame Janeway for being stranded in the DQ. What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict? It makes Janeway look like a total Mary Sue if all those Maquis people will simply defer to her right away.

yeah, I agree with this second point. The fact that Janeway basically stranded all these people out there should have served as more of a source of conflict. Instead, except for a few episodes, it was largely forgotten so they could show everyone on the ship falling in line behind the captain.
I thought that the episode Learning Curve covered it pretty well (addressing the conflict).
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Old December 10 2012, 08:01 PM   #95
exodus
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Re: How many reset buttons?

sonak wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Comparing X-Files to Star Trek is like comparing Buck Rodgers to Supernatural
There are differences, but X-Files proved that an ongoing story can work in a TV show.

exodus wrote: View Post
Chakotay destroyed their ship, remember?
So they had no supplies, no food, no place to sleep & no weapons.
Someone honest is offering them all of that and more as long as the do an honest days work...........and this person still needs to gain you're trust?
They were never treated as political prisoners or enemies. Why bite the hand that's feeding you considering you have no other options?
You're 75 thousand light years from home with nothing to your name. What's more important, your political views or a hot plate of food? Isn't that more believable?l
Just because Chakoty and the Maquis don't have much of a choice doesn't mean they have to be happy about. There should have been more resistance and push back against Star Fleet regulations and frankly I think a lot of the Maquis would blame Janeway for being stranded in the DQ. What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict? It makes Janeway look like a total Mary Sue if all those Maquis people will simply defer to her right away.

yeah, I agree with this second point. The fact that Janeway basically stranded all these people out there should have served as more of a source of conflict. Instead, except for a few episodes, it was largely forgotten so they could show everyone on the ship falling in line behind the captain.
Chakotay stranded his own people there as well.
Isn't he as much at fault as she is?
Why would the Maquis be pissed at Janeway and not at him as well?
Besides, didn't DS9's "Maquis" state the Maquis weren't enemies of the Federation and wanted no conflict with them? Isn't that what Cal kept telling Sisko? Didn't Kira also tell Sisko that the Maquis weren't the aggressors and we discovered by the end of the 2 parter that it was the Cardassians manipulating the whole thing?
Adm. Nycheiv called them "Citizens of the Federation".

The Overlord wrote: View Post
What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict?
Because they knew how to survive with very little resources. They proved they could survive in hostile conditions. Being poor, hungry and hunted was a daily way of life for them.
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Last edited by exodus; December 10 2012 at 08:26 PM.
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Old December 11 2012, 04:52 AM   #96
The Overlord
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Re: How many reset buttons?

Trekker82 wrote: View Post
I thought that the episode Learning Curve covered it pretty well (addressing the conflict).
That was one episode, there should have been several episodes that dealt with Maquis Federation conflict. There were only a handful of episodes that touched upon this plot point at all during the entire series.
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Old December 11 2012, 05:13 AM   #97
Guy Gardener
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Re: How many reset buttons?

In Learning curve the Maquis should have let Tuvok die in that fire, and then spent the next three episodes trying to cover up their complicity, followed by a trial after they're caught, and then complete aftermath of beng found innocent where the Fleet crew keep being passive aggressive, or they're found Guilty and the rest of the Maquis start hoarding weapons and food waiting for when Security comes for them too.

Of course Tuvok put his katra into a bioneural gel pack, so after everyone gets their shit together, they'll notice that the ship is haunted, and the Vulcan can have a magical resurrection...
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; December 11 2012 at 08:03 AM.
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Old December 11 2012, 06:09 AM   #98
exodus
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Re: How many reset buttons?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Trekker82 wrote: View Post
I thought that the episode Learning Curve covered it pretty well (addressing the conflict).
That was one episode, there should have been several episodes that dealt with Maquis Federation conflict. There were only a handful of episodes that touched upon this plot point at all during the entire series.
Ok, then lets just say for the sake of argument there was conflict between both parties and political views were more important than survival. Then what exactly IYO would have been the key moment that would have made them both quit being adversaries?
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Old December 11 2012, 06:34 AM   #99
teacake
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Re: How many reset buttons?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Just because Chakoty and the Maquis don't have much of a choice doesn't mean they have to be happy about. There should have been more resistance and push back against Star Fleet regulations and frankly I think a lot of the Maquis would blame Janeway for being stranded in the DQ. What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict? It makes Janeway look like a total Mary Sue if all those Maquis people will simply defer to her right away.
While some of them had starfleet backgrounds I'm going to assume most of them didn't. If this had happened to me and I was suddenly forced to wear a uniform and follow military protocols and regulations, slot into a military system I would have a freaking heart attack and after that I'd be looking for any possible way to exist in that hell and not have to put up with too much of it. I would not make a very good reluctant recruit and I'm not sure I would ever get used to it.

I'm thinking the Maquis were full of anti-authority misfit types for whom fitting into starfleet would be very difficult.
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Old December 11 2012, 07:10 PM   #100
lurok
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Re: How many reset buttons?

One of the things I liked about Good Shepherd is that it showed even some non-Maquis starfleet had trouble fitting in.
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Old December 12 2012, 02:18 AM   #101
JirinPanthosa
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Re: How many reset buttons?

I don't mind that the crew forgave Janeway for stranding them. It was the 'Starfleet' thing to do, and most of the major Maquis crewmembers had backstories that made it seem like they wouldn't have wanted to doom the Ocampa to Kazon slavery either. But, they should have had a story where like 1/5 of the crew sided with Seska.

My biggest complaint about the direction Voyager went in is that they never had to really confront the negative consequences of sticking with Starfleet morals the way DS9 did. Besides a handful of times where it kept them from short cuts home, it seemed being moral always worked out for them.
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Old December 12 2012, 02:41 AM   #102
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Re: How many reset buttons?

exodus wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
Trekker82 wrote: View Post
I thought that the episode Learning Curve covered it pretty well (addressing the conflict).
That was one episode, there should have been several episodes that dealt with Maquis Federation conflict. There were only a handful of episodes that touched upon this plot point at all during the entire series.
Ok, then lets just say for the sake of argument there was conflict between both parties and political views were more important than survival. Then what exactly IYO would have been the key moment that would have made them both quit being adversaries?

Actually...from a dramatic point of view, what I would have done was steadily ramp up the tension with the Maquis. Show them gradually feeling more and more frustrated with Janeway, her decision and her rules...then have it reach a breaking point. Have Janeway make a SERIOUSLY controversial decision that ultimately makes everyone's life harder...the Maquis decide that they have had enough and want out of this little arrangement. They confront both Chuckels and Janeway and ask to be let out at the next space port. The Maquis give Chuckles an ultimatum...he can stay and be Janeway's puppet, or he can show some leadership and lead them home. Janeway is FINALLY forced on confront the fact that her actions may have critically damaged their attempt to get home since now Voyager is left with fewer crew members than it needs to function. She tries to make concessions that appease the Maquis, to no avail...they want to go their own way. A season ends with Voyager stopping at a friendly port and letting out a sizeable chunk of the crew and then flying away short handed.

The following season would then feature a dual track story format (smilar tot he behind enemy lines storytelling on DS9)...showing the Maquis and Voyager taking their own separate paths home (starting with the Maquis procuring a ship).

Needless to say that the crews would stay divided for a while...and both sides would have succeses and spectacular failures. But in the Trek tradition, something, perhaps a looming threat, would bring the two crews back together (perhaps in a Pegasus/Galactica kind of way at first and then back on the same ship). This time when the crews merged there would be a real consensus that this is the best option and that it really is a mutual decision based on mutual respect. The new unified status quo would be very different than where the show started. Janeway (and Tuvok) would have to acknowledge the reality that this new situation is very different than what was planned when they left DS9. Voyager is on a trip that might very easily take decades and that it is no longer purely a Starfleet ship. Maybe they keep the ranks but ditch the uniforms...who knows. The point is that this new storyline would feel very different than any Trek we would have seen to that point. Hell, given a choice I would severely damage Voyager during the process of joining the crews and force them to repair it to the point that its almost a new ship. Thus when they got underway again, it really would feel like a new direction.

Needless to say all of that could have been done without ever going as dark as BSG, while still making the series feel unique from anything that we'd seen on TOS and TNG. In effect, you'd be really committed to using Voyager's unique premise to its fullest.
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Old December 12 2012, 03:15 AM   #103
exodus
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Re: How many reset buttons?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I don't mind that the crew forgave Janeway for stranding them. It was the 'Starfleet' thing to do, and most of the major Maquis crewmembers had backstories that made it seem like they wouldn't have wanted to doom the Ocampa to Kazon slavery either. But, they should have had a story where like 1/5 of the crew sided with Seska.
Why would they side with a Cardassian? They're the ones that tried killing them off and forced them out of their homes to begin with.


My biggest complaint about the direction Voyager went in is that they never had to really confront the negative consequences of sticking with Starfleet morals the way DS9 did. Besides a handful of times where it kept them from short cuts home, it seemed being moral always worked out for them.
That was the metaphor used in "Equinox" about the plaque on the wall falling down. The more Janeways morals slipped, the more the ship became in disarray. That's how Voyager started out, remember Janeways speech about how sticking to their morals and principals would get them thru.?

I think the 3 modern capt. all had a trail.
Picard's was against Q to prove mankind was worthy.

Sisko's was to the Prophets and to live up to being the "chosen" one.
I think Janeway's was to her own morals. I think that's why they made much of her decisions questionable. Look at "Endgame" Adm. Janeway lost her morals but went back to save herself from becoming that broken woman.

The Overlord wrote: View Post

There are differences, but X-Files proved that an ongoing story can work in a TV show.
That was proven long before the X-Files, which TPTB running the show are also aware of. Paramount didn't want Voyager to be a tight ongoing story because they wanted to sell the show into syndication because it brings in more money. It's one of the reasons Paramount spent way more money promoting TNG and Voy over DS9.
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Last edited by exodus; December 12 2012 at 03:45 AM.
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Old December 12 2012, 08:48 AM   #104
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Re: How many reset buttons?

Wanting to sell to syndication doesn't mean you can't have tight ongoing stories. All it means is that it has to air in a specific order.
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Old December 12 2012, 07:48 PM   #105
exodus
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Re: How many reset buttons?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Wanting to sell to syndication doesn't mean you can't have tight ongoing stories.
Yeah, it kinda does.
Syndicated TV doesn't like to buy tight ongoing series because they're aware their audience doesn't tune in everyday for a rerun show. They also prefer to show eps. of series out of sequence for the same reason. It's one of the main reasons why when TNG went into reruns, they never showed the two-part eps. unless they did special marathons. The reason is, most syndicated rerun shows are shown during the ours people are coming home from work or school and are mostly to preoccupied either making dinner or other family obligations to watch a rerun show daily.

Think about it, if your watching DS9 in rerun for the first time and you miss two or more eps. because you can't be home to see it, there's a good chance you've missed vital parts of the story. If an audience misses too much to keep track, they'll stop watching. So now you've lost much of your viewers during that time slot. So syndication just blew money on a show that many folks aren't tuning in for. TPTB at Paramount know all this and know that a syndicated network is more willing to buy a show that doesn't have a tight ongoing story than one that does.

It all comes down too, how much can we get back out of the money we invested in it.
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