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Old December 12 2012, 01:22 AM   #181
T'Girl
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Longinus wrote: View Post
If we go to etymology, then Starfleet certainly will not have 'marines' as they do not operate at the sea.
How would that effect the use of "marines" today. Marines are much more likely to arrive in a combat area by way of transport aircraft, ships being the secondary method of arrival.

Timo wrote: View Post
and OTOH Federation infantry is extremely rarely seen
It is a show that concentrates on "The Fleet." we saw the Starfleet JAG corp twice, never really saw the fighter squadrons (just the fighters themselves), a fair bit of the academy, the merchant marines once (Charlie X, imo), some time with a few other department.

But mostly the fleet.

************

Doesn't Israeli have the same names for their ranks, regardless if army or navy?


Last edited by T'Girl; December 12 2012 at 01:36 AM.
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Old December 12 2012, 01:40 AM   #182
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
How would that effect the use of "marines" today. Marines are much more likely to arrive in a combat area by way of transport aircraft, ships being the secondary method of arrival.
I know. It was merely a response to the claim that ground troops and navies have to have separate rank names because of the etymology.

As for Colonel West, he is only one guy who appears on deleted scenes, so I'd not base any far reaching conclusions on him.
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Old December 12 2012, 01:57 AM   #183
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Longinus wrote: View Post
Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
How would that effect the use of "marines" today. Marines are much more likely to arrive in a combat area by way of transport aircraft, ships being the secondary method of arrival.
I know. It was merely a response to the claim that ground troops and navies have to have separate rank names because of the etymology.

As for Colonel West, he is only one guy who appears on deleted scenes, so I'd not base any far reaching conclusions on him.
It's not a deleted scene. It was actually re-inserted into the movie for the VHS release, therefore making it canon.
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Old December 12 2012, 03:08 AM   #184
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Longinus wrote: View Post
If we go to etymology, then Starfleet certainly will not have 'marines' as they do not operate at the sea.
How would that effect the use of "marines" today. Marines are much more likely to arrive in a combat area by way of transport aircraft, ships being the secondary method of arrival.



From a new government building up a force from scratch, why would they use the term?. The Earth's Marine Corps tend to get that name if the training cadre sent by a friendly nation was made up of US or Royal Marines. Those that were not tend to have other names like the Israeli Defense Force's Givati Brigade, and Naval Commandos. The Japanese Special Naval Landing Force The Russian Naval Infantry. But then we have The People's Liberation Army Navy Marine Corps, maybe it flows in the PRC's official Chinese dialect
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Old December 12 2012, 04:24 AM   #185
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
There is no reason to believe that rank titles will not continue to evolve in ways that we might not predict. A good example is the Royal Ar Force. A "squadron leader" does not command a squadron today, it has just become the term for that particular rank. It's been around for almost a hundred years now and causes no confusion or difficulty, everyone is used to it.
Justin
If we stay in-universe, you have an argument. If we go meta-universe, when Roddenberry conceived it, he deliberately stuck to forms and structures his audience would be familiar with. Essentially, it was a dramatic re-creation, so likely most of the adventures happened to other people in-universe, but Kirk/Picard/et alia were the meta-characters we saw and related to. Similarly, while "Captain Picard" was our vehicle for viewing the 'verse, in-universe he was a conflation of Ship-Leader Grantham, Scout-Commander Renaille, and Roving Federation Agent T'Shirr, depicting the adventures of those three and dozens of others - kind of like how Hornblower, Aubrey, Drinkwater, and Bolitho are pastiches of various real Royal Navy officers, and their adventures are frequently drawn from actual logs of the napoleonic age.
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Old December 12 2012, 09:51 AM   #186
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Marines are much more likely to arrive in a combat area by way of transport aircraft, ships being the secondary method of arrival.
And in the 20th century, Cavalry arrives in armored cars or helicopters, having sold its last horses for meat in the very beginning of that century.

In some rare cases, there are tactical aspects to modern "Cavalry" that resemble those of horseback combatants of the 19th century. But much of the 19th century cavalry role is actually now performed by main battle tanks, while armored cars, helicopters and other such skirmisher elements are reminiscent of very different historical warforces. The term "Cavalry" is carried on despite and against historical roots, not because of them.

In that sense, space infantry might decide to call themselves Paras or Hoplites and actually hit closer to the mark than with "Marines".

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Old December 12 2012, 10:04 AM   #187
T'Girl
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Timo wrote: View Post
having sold its last horses for meat in the very beginning of that century.
US Army 1st Cavalry Division does maintain a ceremonial detachment of horse-mounted cavalry.

The term "Cavalry" is carried on despite and against historical roots
Mounted warriors, that makes them cavalry.

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Old December 12 2012, 10:11 AM   #188
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mounted warriors, that makes them cavalry.
Naah - that makes them mounted infantry. Or what dragoons were originally.

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Old December 12 2012, 06:39 PM   #189
Nerys Myk
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

We should still have dragoons, because it sounds cool.
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Old December 12 2012, 07:12 PM   #190
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Dragoons rode to the site of the battle, dismounted, and only then engaged the enemy on foot. Their mounts were transportation, not "fighting vehicles."

So star-marine dragoons would arrive at a planet by starship, beam/shuttle down (dismount), and then engage the enemy on foot, on the planet's surface.
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Old December 12 2012, 08:27 PM   #191
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Dragoons rode to the site of the battle, dismounted, and only then engaged the enemy on foot. Their mounts were transportation, not "fighting vehicles."

So star-marine dragoons would arrive at a planet by starship, beam/shuttle down (dismount), and then engage the enemy on foot, on the planet's surface.
Ok. If we get to call them Star Marine Dragoons, I will allow them to exist.

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Old December 12 2012, 09:53 PM   #192
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

timmy84 wrote: View Post
Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Dragoons rode to the site of the battle, dismounted, and only then engaged the enemy on foot. Their mounts were transportation, not "fighting vehicles."

So star-marine dragoons would arrive at a planet by starship, beam/shuttle down (dismount), and then engage the enemy on foot, on the planet's surface.
Ok. If we get to call them Star Marine Dragoons, I will allow them to exist.

Only in your fan fiction world =D
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Old December 13 2012, 06:59 AM   #193
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Dragoons rode to the site of the battle, dismounted, and only then engaged the enemy on foot. Their mounts were transportation, not "fighting vehicles."
Exactly why they are a pretty good analogy to Marines or Air Cavalry today: such forces possess no real fighting vehicles, just transportation vehicles with varying degrees of fighting shortcomings, pretty much how dragoons left the charging to those with proper (rare and expensive) warhorses and concentrated on other things such as raiding or holding. *

Starfleet Dragoons wouldn't need to go to battle on foot (even though with transporters, that's probably a valid type of tactical and strategic mobility), but their vehicles and craft wouldn't be real frontline "warhorses" or "tanks", either. Which would allow a TV episode to show a deployed SF Dragoon force by placing the usual eight extras in costumes in a dimly lit "outdoors" set, a cheapo location, or a rudimentary virtual environment, with the vehicles and craft done in miniature or background CGI or left out - while letting the depiction of actual vehicle rides or occasional vehicular fighting, with the related full-scale props and whatnot, to bigger-budget movies...

Timo Saloniemi

*) Of course, the glory of charging was too tempting, and eventually all dragoon forces began engaging in it. And as every Young Indiana Jones viewer remembers, 20th century Mounted Infantry sometimes succumbed to the temptation as well... I trust that SF Dragoons would be doing a lot of stuff beyond the real capabilities of their vehicles, too!
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Old December 16 2012, 06:52 PM   #194
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Should the alliance membership wish to draw up a charter that include guarantees on civil rights, something like the UDHR* ... they could.

* The Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Is a treaty subject to sovereign state ratification, not a Constitution.
I never said anything about a constitution, or a treaty.
Then you brought it up for no reason, because it does nothing to rebut my point that alliances do not have Constitutions that guarantee civil rights for people in a sovereign territory the way the Federation does.

Although the member world governments would likely have had to ratify the charter at some point.


Meaning at this point you're just making up.
Well, I wouldn't use the word shit.
I'm sorry to hear that as an adult, you get so concerned about a single syllable that's commonly used as a synonym for "stuff."

I'm exploring a fictional universe Sci, it's a universe with rules. One of the agreed upon rules has to do with what's called "canon."
No. You're just making things up in order to justify an obvious inconsistency.

Like it or not Sci, twice the Federation was blatantly referred to as a alliance.
And like it or not, the actual depiction of the Federation in numerous episodes and films has been as a polity that possesses its own sovereignty and authorities that no alliance could possibly possess and still be just an alliance.

At a certain point, an alliance that has none of the limitations of an alliance and all of the powers of the state is simply no longer an alliance -- no matter how you try to justify it.

Picard in "Peak Performance" claimed that the Federation Starfleet is not a military. This is absurd -- the Federation Starfleet possesses all of the legal traits of a military, including a system of courts-martial. So when the preponderance of evidence says that Starfleet is a military, which is more likely -- that Starfleet is a not-military that just so happens to possess all of the traits that define a military, or that Picard was not speaking accurately?

Which is more likely: That the Federation is a not-sovereign-state that just so happens to possess all of the traits that define sovereign states, or that Kirk and Daniels are not speaking accurately?
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Old December 16 2012, 08:02 PM   #195
T'Girl
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Timo wrote: View Post
Exactly why they are a pretty good analogy to Marines or Air Cavalry today: such forces possess no real fighting vehicles
Attack helicopters, armored fighting vehicles, and I believe the Marines still have their own tanks.

Sci wrote: View Post
Then you brought it up for no reason ...
I disagree and maintain my original assertion, if the species who formed the Federation wished to include in it's charter guarantees on civil rights, they could.

Might the guarantees include the items and language similar to the UDHR? If the Members wanted it too.

an obvious inconsistency
Sci, I have two clear unambiguous references to the Federation being a alliance.

That the Federation is a not-sovereign-state that just so happens to possess all of the traits that define sovereign states
The Federation also has a Membership that engaging in separate foreign policy, which a "sovereign state" wouldn't. Face it, the Federation has a few (but not all) the attributes of a state.

If you accept evidence from the episode Yesteryear, the individual Members exchange ambassadors directly with each other. Sarek is a "full blown" ambassador and was assigned to this duty.

In the 'for what it's worth" column, in the comic Countdown, Jean Luc Picard was the Federation ambassador to Vulcan.

Within the Federation, it sound like the Members are the sovereign powers.

... or that Kirk and Daniels are not speaking accurately?
No, it sounds like they were speaking accurately, clearly, and with forethought, when they both employed the descriptive term "alliance."

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