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Old December 11 2012, 01:23 PM   #166
Longinus
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Sci, you're too quick to dismiss EU as an analogy. It is exactly the kind of nebulous more than an alliance, less than a state that Federation seems to be. And even though EU will become somewhat more unified in the future, I certainly do not see it becoming a true sovereign state.
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Old December 11 2012, 02:40 PM   #167
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Longinus wrote: View Post
Sci, you're too quick to dismiss EU as an analogy. It is exactly the kind of nebulous more than an alliance, less than a state that Federation seems to be. And even though EU will become somewhat more unified in the future, I certainly do not see it becoming a true sovereign state.
No, I agree with Sci. There are some similarities between the Federation and the EU (and it's very probable the Federation was EU-like at some point in it's development, with some remnants to the "present day") but the Federation also has some fundamentally state-like characteristics that the EU simply does not have. The EU doesn't have it's own military. The EU can't place it's member states under martial law. And if the EU ever gained these traits it would for all intents and purposes become a state.

Regarding ranks, it should be noted that there are some real-world militaries that use branch-neutral ranks for all of their services (Korea, for example) and that we have seen some Star Trek races that apparently do the same thing (Cardassians, I think). A number of such races are probably Federation members and any distinction between land and naval ranks would be meaningless to them when translated to their languages - which might have contributed to the Federation choosing to go with just one unified rank system for it's unified military. And since space-naval warfare is seemingly totally dominant in the Trek universe (and space-naval forces were also probably the first to be placed under unified Federation command), in those languages that have branch specific ranks Starfleet chooses to use the naval rank system for it's unified ranks. Personally, I just like the idea because it adds flavor and uniqueness to Starfleet.
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Old December 11 2012, 03:46 PM   #168
Timo
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Ergo, my idea for any future personnel force should be "Soldier" and they have it's own division within Starfleet
The thing is, Kirk considers himself a soldier ("Errand of Mercy"). He's not from a branch or force or division dedicated to ground fighting or personal fighting, but he is from a branch or force or division that practices ship-based fighting among other things. So we already have one way Starfleet personnel use the word "soldier" here. Doesn't mean they couldn't use it in other, different ways as well, of course.

We also know Starfleet uses the term "troops", these being shipped around in the DS9 war episodes. This appears different from starship crews, although unfortunately we lack further information about the personnel or their mission or organization.

Since both the words are extremely rarely used, and OTOH Federation infantry is extremely rarely seen, there aren't major obstacles to saying that Federation infantry refers to itself as soldiers or troopers. That doesn't tell us whether said Federation infantry is part of Starfleet, and if so, which sort of part, but at least it's an option open to us.

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Old December 11 2012, 04:37 PM   #169
J.T.B.
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ It's inherent in the very meaning of the words: From wikipedia:

The word "admiral" in Middle English comes from Anglo-French amiral, "commander", from Medieval Latin admiralis, admirallus. These themselves come from Arabic "amir", or amir-al- أمير الـ, "commander of the" (as in amir-al-bahr أمير البحر "commander of the sea").[

The rank of general came about as a "captain-general", the captain of an army in general (i.e., the whole army). The rank of captain-general began appearing around the time of the organization of professional armies in the 17th century. In most countries "captain-general" contracted to just "general".
The derivation of words hundreds of years ago has nothing to do with their suitability today or in the future. The earlier claim that it doesn't make sense for admirals to command ground troops takes a limited interpretation of the word, and ignores the fact that admirals (and other "naval ranks") have commanded ground troops in the past and are doing so today.

There is no reason to believe that rank titles will not continue to evolve in ways that we might not predict. A good example is the Royal Ar Force. A "squadron leader" does not command a squadron today, it has just become the term for that particular rank. It's been around for almost a hundred years now and causes no confusion or difficulty, everyone is used to it.

Justin
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Old December 11 2012, 04:49 PM   #170
Star Wolf
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Got to love that rank inflation where Group Captains command wings, Wing Commanders command squadrons and Squadron Leaders lead flights. I remember a series when there was only one "captain" on a ship so the Marine detachment commander became Major while on board and Captain ashore on a mission. And today a supercarrier has four or more Navy Captains and should a USMC squadron be afloat, the mind boggles.
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Old December 11 2012, 05:11 PM   #171
Ro_Laren
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
The black outfit guys on DS9 are an odditiy. While they do seem to be some sort of ground force, they use navy style ranks like the rest of Starfleet.
I'm trying to remember the name of the episode(s) where we see these guys. Do you have a picture / screen capture of them.


The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Colonel West, despite his army rank wears a Starfleet uniform with an Admiral's insignia. He should have a Captain's insignia, since a Colonel is the Army/Marine equivelant of a Navy Captain. Although the novels say he is an Admiral who is referred to as Colonel as a nickname.
I feel a little rusty. Who is Colonel West?
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Old December 11 2012, 05:25 PM   #172
Spike730
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Colonel West was the Scooby-Doo assassin in TUC. And never mind his uniform. The costume department didn't pay much attention to detail in that particular movie. One female officer at the Starfleet HQ briefing is addressed as "captain" even though she's wearing an admiral's uniform. And Valeris' uniform is one big mess: 3 different department colours (and none befitting the ship's helmsman) and incorrect rank insignia.
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Old December 11 2012, 10:01 PM   #173
Timo
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Colonel West is also the only character ever in Star Trek to hold a non-naval rank, if we discount American soldiers from the 20th century time travel episodes.

There's some semantic reason to assume that we aren't witnessing a Colonel this time around, either, and in fact the guy's surname just happens to be Cornell-West... Namely, the UFP President addressing this man as "Colonel West" or "Cornell-West" very pointedly addresses all others with their surnames or even their given names, rather than with their rank-plus-surname.

I'm trying to remember the name of the episode(s) where we see these guys. Do you have a picture / screen capture of them.
Two episodes... "Nor the Battle to the Strong" is the first to feature both these uniforms and the more common DS9/VOY style ones on the various ground-fighting guest stars, while "The Siege of AR-558" repeats the performance; it seems that the people in "regular" uniforms might be more like support types while the people with the thin stripes are the gunslingers.

This is Lieutenant Burke from the first episode:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...letothe174.jpg

This is one of his colleagues, with a yellow stripe:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...letothe255.jpg

The second episode is very dimly lit for the most part. This is a non-regulation way to wear the special uniform, I guess:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu.../ar558_264.jpg

A rear view:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu.../ar558_318.jpg

Lots of wear and tear on this one:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu.../ar558_346.jpg

The reinforcements wear regular uniforms:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu.../ar558_389.jpg

A last look at the special uniform, with prominent layering (a phaser-resistant configuration?), plus a few Jem'hadar Ketracel tubes for trophies...

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu.../ar558_393.jpg

Timo Saloniemi
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Old December 11 2012, 10:40 PM   #174
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Timo wrote: View Post
This is Lieutenant Burke from the first episode:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...letothe174.jpg
No, that's Senior Chief L'ten'a'nt-Burke.
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Old December 11 2012, 10:43 PM   #175
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

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KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
my idea for any future personnel force should be "Soldier" and they have it's own division within Starfleet just like there is the "Science" / "Command" / "Operations" division.
That's what I was intending, too. Don't call it a "Starfleet Marine Corps", as such, just have the ground troops division be yet another sub-division with its own uniform color, but still be Starfleet. You can even give it ground ranks and call it even. (There may be a sizable number of fans who just expect to see ground ranks used for ground troops.)

As for Colonel West's uniform: I just thought they didn't bother to give him a unique one to wear because we knew we'd never be seeing these characters again. No sense going to all that work dreaming up a new uniform style which would then never be worn again after that one character in one film. (As for why he's a Colonel when it doesn't seem to fit with Starfleet's structure: Remember who he was named after - Oliver North. West, North. Get it? So obviously he's going to be a colonel, since North also was.)
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Old December 11 2012, 10:45 PM   #176
Star Wolf
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
my idea for any future personnel force should be "Soldier" and they have it's own division within Starfleet just like there is the "Science" / "Command" / "Operations" division.
That's what I was intending, too. Don't call it a "Starfleet Marine Corps", as such, just have the ground troops division be yet another sub-division with its own uniform color, but still be Starfleet. You can even give it ground ranks and it would still fit. (There may be a sizable number of fans who just expect to see ground ranks used for ground troops.)

And I still think that black would be a good uniform color to use.
Or for a society whose flagship carries her crew's children something like Security might just do, since Peacekeepers belong to another franchise.
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Old December 11 2012, 10:48 PM   #177
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

I do seem to remember Gene Roddenberry himself once suggesting that in TOS, the Enterprise carried a platoon of marines. Not surprising they didn't show it though.

If you don't like black, though, what color would you suggest?
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Old December 11 2012, 10:52 PM   #178
Star Wolf
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

And up until very recently those small detachments of Marines aboard USN/RN ships performed security and gun crew duties most of the time while spearheading a landing party made up of sailors mostly an additional duty. That seems like the life description of your basic Starfleet Security Red Shirt to me
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Old December 11 2012, 11:28 PM   #179
J.T.B.
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
If you don't like black, though, what color would you suggest?
A darker green similar to USMC forestry green or RM Lovat green would seem appropriate.

Justin
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Old December 12 2012, 01:10 AM   #180
The Wormhole
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Ro_Laren wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
The black outfit guys on DS9 are an odditiy. While they do seem to be some sort of ground force, they use navy style ranks like the rest of Starfleet.
I'm trying to remember the name of the episode(s) where we see these guys. Do you have a picture / screen capture of them.


The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Colonel West, despite his army rank wears a Starfleet uniform with an Admiral's insignia. He should have a Captain's insignia, since a Colonel is the Army/Marine equivelant of a Navy Captain. Although the novels say he is an Admiral who is referred to as Colonel as a nickname.
I feel a little rusty. Who is Colonel West?
As pictures of the black uniformed guys are already posted above, this is Colonel West.
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