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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old December 10 2012, 03:04 PM   #46
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Could this monitor screen be a diagram of the warp engines and reactors?

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...uterhd0856.jpg

Would be interesting to see if it were possible to give those screens a practical meaning.
That screen is when Chekov is asked to look at helm and navigation control so it is unlikely warp engines and reactors.
Not necessarily as they are trying to cut off power from the corresponding automatic circuit relay and switch to manual.

SPOCK: There is one possibility. The automatic helm navigation circuit relays might be disrupted from engineering level three.
...
SPOCK [OC]: Examine the H two seven nine elements, also the G nine five systems.
CHEKOV: Sir, G nine five system appears dead. All indicators are dark.
SPOCK: Thank you, Ensign. SPOCK: It appears, Captain, we've been doing what used to be called pursuing a wild goose. M-5 has rerouted helm and navigational controls, bypassing this primary system.
I removed your assumption (inserted text) that it is a "power" system being bypassed from the dialogue.

If we went by the dialogue, it is pretty clear that they are referring to the primary helm and navigational system, NOT the power system of the ship. You could argue that the diagram is for all the control inputs like helm, GPS, inertial navigation, gyroscope, backup and computer inputs. However, warp engines and reactors? No. Not without changing the dialogue
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Old December 10 2012, 03:15 PM   #47
Timo
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

That would depend on how the helm achieves directional control of the ship. If it regulates the balance between port and starboard warp nacelles, then a diagram like shown here would be a natural part of the operations, at the fundamental level that Spock and Chekov are diagnosing.

What other means could there be? The ship might have a futuristic rudder of some sort, but reference thereto in ST6:TUC appears colloquial at best.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old December 10 2012, 03:50 PM   #48
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Albertese wrote: View Post
"...but it is at the Engineering Station and seems symmetrical..."
And according to Michael McMaster's bridge blueprints (I believe these are based on the original production sketch I don't have with me right now) http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars...ge-sheet-1.jpg
the bridge console for navigational control would be adjacent to Spock's console on the opposing bridge side.

I'd be expecting at least one of these screens of the engineering station to display the power distribution aboard the ship.

Bob
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Old December 11 2012, 01:48 AM   #49
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Timo wrote: View Post
That would depend on how the helm achieves directional control of the ship. If it regulates the balance between port and starboard warp nacelles, then a diagram like shown here would be a natural part of the operations, at the fundamental level that Spock and Chekov are diagnosing.

What other means could there be? The ship might have a futuristic rudder of some sort, but reference thereto in ST6:TUC appears colloquial at best.
Well, let's address that scene.
SPOCK: There is one possibility. The automatic helm navigation circuit relays might be disrupted from engineering level three.
SCOTT: Aye. I can take them out and cut in the manual override from there.
...
They think they disrupted it from inside a tube but it didn't work. Spock wants Chekov to verify their work. Chekov looks at the diagram in question.
...
CHEKOV: All indicators are dark.
SPOCK: Thank you, Ensign.
SPOCK: It appears, Captain, we've been doing what used to be called pursuing a wild goose. M-5 has rerouted helm and navigational controls, bypassing this primary system.
SCOTT: But it was active. I'd stake all that I know that it was.
SPOCK: I believe that when M-5 discovered our tampering, it rerouted the controls, leaving this one active by simply sending through an electronic impulse at regular intervals.
In other words, Chekov had no reason to look at a "warp engines and reactors" diagram. He had reason to look at the helm and navigational control diagram which would contain the "automatic helm navigation circuit relay" and probably the "manual override" circuit.

As to how the ship is steered and what powers the ship on a granular level, that is beyond the scope of the scene and diagram, IMO.
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Old December 11 2012, 09:40 AM   #50
Timo
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Chekov is looking at the status of specific circuits that affect navigation. It would make quite a bit of sense for the circuits to be displayed at their correct physical and functional locations in the overall navigational system, which no doubt consists of three sorts of things (pardon my Pakledian):

- things that make the ship go where wanted
- things that tell the ship where it is
- things that coordinate between the above two and contain knowledge of places to go to

Chekov wouldn't have a reason to look at line upon line of abstract software in the coordinating department when he's studying circuit status. The heroes aren't in the dark about where they are, either. They have serious problems turning the ship around to where they want to go, though. It only sounds natural that Chekov would be studying the very part of the navigation system that physically turns the ship around... The part that now has been rendered inactive, so that nothing done with the helm will cause the ship to turn around.

Whether the display describing the ship-turning mechanisms and their controls would incorporate reactors, warp coils, subspace rudders or something else, depends on the deeper nature of how starships are steered. But these mechanistic components would have every right to be prominently on display when Chekov verifies that these systems are no longer being affected by helm-originated impulses. In contrast, there would be no reason to display things like star charts, spacelane memory banks or sensor layouts during this verification.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old December 11 2012, 10:43 AM   #51
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Timo wrote: View Post
Chekov wouldn't have a reason to look at line upon line of abstract software in the coordinating department when he's studying circuit status.
And that is not what he is asked to do. Why do you think he was told to look at software as it is not in the dialogue?

Timo wrote: View Post
The heroes aren't in the dark about where they are, either. They have serious problems turning the ship around to where they want to go, though. It only sounds natural that Chekov would be studying the very part of the navigation system that physically turns the ship around... The part that now has been rendered inactive, so that nothing done with the helm will cause the ship to turn around.
Which is why he would not be looking at a diagram of "warp engines and reactors".
  1. As per the dialogue, he was verifying if the "automatic helm navigation circuit relay" was actually disrupted.
  2. He was not verifying the power output of reactor #3 or warp engine thrust output.
There would be a difference between looking at the controls to the propulsion system and the power system that powers the propulsion system.

Remember, Scotty thought he was breaking a connection between M5 and the automatic helm control circuit which sounds like a fancy way of saying "autopilot controls" and he was relying on whether that circuit was powered. He wasn't staking what he knew on whether braking thrusters were powered.

Now, if you were trying really hard to convince yourself that the diagram is a warp engine AND reactor display then you can ignore the dialogue call it what you want.
  1. That diagram does show up in other episodes so Chekov might actually be looking at the various lighted buttons around that station and in order to get the status of the circuits turn on the warp engine and reactors display to get a reading.
  2. Of course, you'd have a stronger argument if there was an episode Scotty or an engineer was looking at that same diagram to confirm a warp power or reactor status.
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Old December 11 2012, 01:58 PM   #52
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

I followed the ion pod discussion and absolutely concur with blssdwlf but I'm unable to do so here.

A) The whole purpose of the events we are discussing is to retake helm and navigational control from the M-5 computer by "disrupting" the automatic helm navigation circuit relays from engineering level three. How do you "disrupt"? Very likely by withdrawing the power feed from the automatic helm navigation circuit as without power the circuit is as dead as the Dodo and M-5 can't use it any longer to steer the ship.

B) After their sabotage they find out they did not regain control and Spock asks Chekov to examine the "H279 elements" and the "G95 systems" which he does at the bridge's engineering station (navigational systems and "Ass't Navigator" are on the other side of the bridge according to the official bridge station layout!). The H279 elements seem to be okay, but the G95 systems are dead (no indicator).

C) Scotty than expresses disbelief as the primary system seemed "active" (i.e. powered by energy) but actually wasn't. They were under the impression of re-routing and re-connecting active power feeds while in the meantime the M-5 computer had already done that on its behalf, anticipating their actions.

I suggest to take another and unbiased look at the screen readout and the schematics ("Eng 6") http://tap364.webs.com/engineeringstation.htm

While Troy Palmer admits that he made up the text on this engineering display (there's no close-up shot of the original prop, yet) the schematic clearly suggests we are looking at pressurized containers / bottles of some kind and not some kind of circuit diagram exclusively.

The only reason I introduced this diagram into the debate was that it appears to me that on the left side we are looking at the three matter-antimatter reactors (the two from the nacelles and the smaller one in the engineering hull) with only two dilithium crystal conversion points beetween the three and the power flow (green) emmanating from these.

I really don't want to sound sarcastic, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it probably isn't a wild goose.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; December 11 2012 at 11:06 PM.
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Old December 11 2012, 02:37 PM   #53
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

It's okay to be sarcastic, but it's not close to a duck or even a goose. You guys are trying too hard to fit a square into an oval opening

  1. How they are "disrupting" the control is by breaking the connection. It's the equivalent to cutting the wiring between the automatic pilot box and the control box if we're talking about an aircraft or ship.
  2. Because of the context of that scene, it does not mean the pattern you see on that diagram corresponds to X number or reactors and Y number of dilithium conversion points. If we wanted to, we can come up with a host of other meanings for such a display on that station that has nothing to do with dilithium crystals and reactors.
  3. Is that diagram ever referred to again in the context of power distribution and NOT automatic helm control?
Edit:


The funny thing is that I'm an advocate of a three reactor setup and I could easily adapt to this diagram. It's the context of how it is introduced into this scene that is bothersome as it has nothing to do with power generation but about flight control.

However...

If you guys had argued that Chekov wasn't looking at that screen for the control information but the buttons he pushes after he turns on that screen (because he never looks back up to confirm they are dead before he goes over to call Spock) then you might be on to something

Last edited by blssdwlf; December 11 2012 at 03:05 PM.
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Old December 11 2012, 03:27 PM   #54
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Why do you think he was told to look at software as it is not in the dialogue?
Huh? I don't. I just ruled out one thing that the display might be about. It's not about the abstractions of navigation - it's about the practical means of pointing the ship's bow in a desired direction.

  1. As per the dialogue, he was verifying if the "automatic helm navigation circuit relay" was actually disrupted.
  2. He was not verifying the power output of reactor #3 or warp engine thrust output.
But my point is that the automatic helm navigation circuit relay is highly likely to directly deal with the power output of a warp engine. Because that's how the ship is steered, IMHO.

There aren't many other things that the automatic helm navigation circuit relay could deal with.

- If it dealt with star chart databanks, our heroes would ignore it, because their problem is with getting the steering to obey helm commands.
- If it dealt with navigational sensors, our heroes would ignore it, because their problem is with getting the steering to obey helm commands.
- If it dealt with the flow of commands within a data network, our heroes would concentrate on the lines connecting the helm to the actual steering bits (warp engines, subspace rudders, whatever), because their problem is with getting the steering to obey helm commands.

The display Chekov needs is one showing the relationship between the helm and the steering machinery. Few other things would suffice. It isn't at all unexpected that such a display would show a graphical simplification of the helm console together with a graphical simplification of the steering machinery. Which could well be the same thing as the warp engines.

It's not just one possible, not particularly forced interpretation. It appears to me to be the only one even remotely possible.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old December 11 2012, 04:36 PM   #55
Albertese
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

It also could be that the specific systems Chekov is checking are related to the "autopilot" by indirect means, since, after all, M-5 is trying to misdirect them and Spock is just that much smarter than the computer. Perhaps the "H279 elements" and the "G95 systems" are components of the engines which respond to the helm control? Maybe the G95 system is a sort of throttle assembly that the helm uses to control the reactor output to the actual engine elements.

I'm quite comfortable with the graphic Chekov turns on having everything to do with the reactors and engines.

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Old December 12 2012, 02:01 AM   #56
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Timo wrote: View Post
Why do you think he was told to look at software as it is not in the dialogue?
Huh? I don't. I just ruled out one thing that the display might be about.
I see. I wasn't sure why you brought it up since I did not.

Timo wrote: View Post
It's not about the abstractions of navigation - it's about the practical means of pointing the ship's bow in a desired direction.
If that were so, then why were they disrupting the "automatic helm and navigation control"? A ship also needs to have sensors to understand if it's course correction inputs are having the desired effect.

If it was as simple as cutting power to one nacelle to skid steer the ship we would have plenty of examples - but we don't.

Actually, when looking at the argument of how tightly coupled helm control is to the engines it would appear that they are treated as two separate systems which undercuts your argument that helm and navigational control circuits would be present on that diagram.

"The Naked Time"
Captain's Log, stardate 1704.4. Ship out of control, spiraling down towards planet Psi 2000. We have nineteen minutes of life left without engine power or helm control.
Kirk calls out "helm control" and "engine power" as distinct entities.

and in the same episode, Scotty jury-rigs "something" to give power to helm control to stabilize the descent.
SCOTT: Engineering to Bridge. Try your helm. You'll have enough power to keep her stabilised. Here, let's have a look at that.
But hey wait a minute, helm control is controlling the ship with the warp engines and impulse engines off? That does not sound like they are tied directly to the warp engines.

and "The Ultimate Computer"
KIRK: Lieutenant, get Daystrom up here. Disengaging M-5 unit. Cut speed to warp one. Navigator, go to course one one three mark seven. I want that ship given a wide berth.
SULU: She won't respond, sir. She's maintaining course.
CHEKOV: Going to warp four, sir.
MCCOY: Jim.
KIRK: Scotty, reverse engines. Slow us down.
SCOTT: Reverse thrusts will not engage, sir. Manual override isn't working either.
Kirk addresses two DIFFERENT functions, engine speed and helm control/navigation. Sulu's "helm control" cannot turn her around. So Kirk goes to "engine control" or Scotty to slow the ship down with engines. Notice he doesn't tell Scotty to slow one engine down to turn the ship.


If we were to think about how helm control (or steering) works it would be independent of acceleration and braking controls (or engines).

Yes, Helm control does send throttle settings to the active engine systems (warp or impulse or both) to accelerate and decelerate but turning is NOT reliant on them in a direct sense since we've seen it operate with engines down. If you're wondering what does the actual turning, in TOS it is left vague. However in various later series and the movies they point strongly to "thrusters" and "stabilizing gyros". Especially "For the Uniform" where the control systems are disabled and the crew has to manually trigger the thrusters for helm control.

So if that diagram was related to autopilot helm control, it would be the computer leads to the banks of sensors (to confirm that they are actually changing directions), gyros, thrusters and throttle control to the warp and impulse engines (but not necessarily detailed down to the reactors and crystal assemblies).

Also another factor against that diagram having the helm and navigational control circuits in them is that it shows up in many episodes on that panel. It would be foolhardy to argue that every time that diagram shows up the ship's automatic helm and navigational controls have been re-routed and the normal circuits are dead

BUT - if you've stayed reading this far, I'm happy to agree that the diagram could be about the power generation and/or propulsion system.

Chekov clearly looks down at the buttons and makes a determination that the circuits are dead after fiddling with it. He NEVER looked back up to that diagram to confirm the circuits were dead when he goes to tell Spock indicating that the diagram had nothing directly to do with the helm and navigational control circuit
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Old December 12 2012, 10:44 AM   #57
Timo
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

If that were so, then why were they disrupting the "automatic helm and navigation control"?
Because that's the system that M-5 uses to steer the ship, so that's the system they have to disrupt. And never mind that most of what the system does is irrelevant to the events. That's true of most systems and most events.

If it was as simple as cutting power to one nacelle to skid steer the ship we would have plenty of examples - but we don't.
Uh, where? "Ultimate Computer" is unique in having a situation where equipment problems prevent the turning of the ship. If a divine entity is in control of the ship's path, it is not something you can defeat by rerouting circuit 87H. But if a malevolent computer does, going back to the basics and cutting individual circuits to regain direct manual control is indeed the logical way to go.

it would appear that they are treated as two separate systems which undercuts your argument that helm and navigational control circuits would be present on that diagram.
Chekov needs a diagram with the two put together, in order to thwart M-5. Why would the ship refuse to give him such a diagram on this special occasion? (Apart, of course, from M-5 perhaps fighting back by messing with Chekov's displays.)

Any two systems aboard the ship are unrelated as such, but a plot may tie them together - say, transporters and power, or sensors and internal security.

Not that it would be particularly rare for steering and power to be tied together by events. Indeed, one would expect this to happen about 90% of the time, the remaining 10% representing rare malfunctions. And it's 10% rather than 0.1% only because malfunctions and other calamities are made more common than one would realistically expect, by the presence of the cameras...

But hey wait a minute, helm control is controlling the ship with the warp engines and impulse engines off? That does not sound like they are tied directly to the warp engines.
Helm is controlling lots of things, including the main weapons. At times, it will control the teeny weeny steering thrusters; what is of interest here is whether it will control more significant elements of steering at other times. And in order to make Chekov's display consistent, I just postulate that it will.

Really, we know that the ship can warp with impulse engines down and vice versa. We also get lots of references to thruster steering from the movies onwards. No doubt the ship has a number of different steering systems, and thruster steering appears to be very rarely used in any flight mode other than crawling (and never in TOS!). In "Ultimate Computer", our heroes would be interested in warp steering, and for that a diagram featuring the relationship between the helm and the warp steering machinery is a natural element.

It would be foolhardy to argue that every time that diagram shows up the ship's automatic helm and navigational controls have been re-routed and the normal circuits are dead
Now that would depend on whether the pixels indicating leads GEDE225 through 247 are amber or red, wouldn't it? In the former case, we're just seeing the standard helm circuits at standard mode, rather than dead as in this adventure.

It would be fun to invent a function for each of the curiously static displays on the bridge, one compatible with both general and plot-specific roles. But this one doesn't really call for much inventing.

indicating that the diagram had nothing directly to do with the helm and navigational control circuit
Only if the diagram had nothing to do with the buttons. But supposedly the buttons are every bit as interactive and informative as the diagrams...

Really, trying to separate the display from the buttons is way more effort than simply establishing that the display is related to what Chekov is doing. Or does he idly watch the same sort of porn as Scotty does while working?

Timo Saloniemi

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Old December 12 2012, 02:55 PM   #58
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Back to the original thread subject I think we may be looking at a total of 4 to 5 engine rooms aboard USS Enterprise and would like to present my case.

To start with I think it’s safe to assume that at the beginning of Season One the premises of the show were still in a state of flux illustrated by Kirk’s and McCoy’s quarters (on Engineering Deck 12) with cabin windows (“Rank hath its privileges.” “How well we both know that. Hehehe” McCoy replies to Kirk in “Arena”, a late echo?) and the same could be assumed for the location of the engine room in Season One.

The studio set for the Season One engine room differed noticably from the one they started to use from Season Two on (personally I’m not a big fan of “upgrade rationalizations”, thus prefer to regard these as independent rooms that continued to co-exist during the later two seasons).

The studio set plan from the first season is pretty straightforward and presented us with an engine room that would fit at the saucer’s stern and still leave enough space for a turbo shaft system connecting the saucer with the engineering hull (great forward thinking of Matt Jefferies!): http://s757.beta.photobucket.com/use...12363632874782

This kind of engine room can’t possibly be in the center of the saucer or the engineering hull and Mytran did a simulation to illustrate the issue: http://s757.beta.photobucket.com/use...64546028420048

(The corridor of the “Engineering Control Room” on the port side seen in “The Naked Time” was a dead end with no turbo lift and therefore not obstructing turbo lift passage down to the engineering hull!).

Greg Tyler did a great job illustrating the evolution and design changes (production order) of the Season One engine room: http://www.trekplace.com/article14.html

What I found really interesting was the extra effort and the changes applied to the engine room set for “The Conscience of the King” as if the producers wanted to present this engine room now to be at a different location aboard the ship by making it look apparently dissimilar:
a) addition of an extra horizontal pipe in the ‘cathedral’ (the part of the engine room with the glowing lights and pipes behind the grated wall opening)
b) addition of three chairs in front of the wall consoles
c) large GNDN prop (“transformers” according to Greg Tyler) turned 90° degrees and
d) an angled-in engineering master control console (a foretaste of things to come for the second season?).



Of course, this could have been simply a production design upgrade BUT they mostly changed it back to its initial appearance in the three episodes following, especially “Court-Martial” and “Space Seed” where “Court-Martial” suggested the final confrontation taking place in the impulse engine room near “B deck” (or “Berth deck” which would be Main Deck 6 aboard the Enterprise).

The notion that the engine room from Season One was retro-actively located at the saucer’s end - standard engine room port side, “Tomorrow is Yesterday” engine room starboard side? -



is also hinted by Whitfield’s Making of Star Trek (written some time after Season One) which clearly distinguishes between an “impulse engine section” and the “star-drive sections”:

“The impulse engine section is located at the bottom rear end of the saucer. Headquarters for the engineering division is also located in this same area, as are main engineering control facilities plus sufficient repair, storage and other facilities to service the primary section when detached from the star-drive sections of the vessel”.

Possibly, with the notable exception from “The Conscience of the King” all engine rooms in Season One where located at the saucer’s stern where Scotty remote-supervised and commanded the other “engine rooms” (“The Naked Time”) in the engineering hull from the saucer’s “Engineering Control Room” (notice that the wall panels of the upcoming Auxilary Control Room were cannibalized from the Season One engine room set).

The new Season Two engine room made its debut on another starship, the Constellation in “The Doomsday Machine”. The new design put it in the center of the corridor axis, quite a contrast to the previous off-center version of the Season One studio set which already in itself suggested a different kind of engine room at a different location of the ship (additionally the room’s ceiling was elevated!): http://s757.beta.photobucket.com/use...99243404428004

A noticable addition was the caged Emergency Manual Monitor, overlooking the new engine room (labelled in the Star Trek Sketchbook, which appears to quote production designer Matt Jefferies, “secondary engineering control room”!).

It’s first appearance aboard the Enterprise took place in “The Changeling” which also established the direct warp drive control mechanisms the Nomad probe improved to be on a panel to the right side of the ladder leading to the new “balcony”.



But already the next episode featuring a prominent display of the engine room in “Journey to Babel” could seem to show another, previously unseen “engine room”:
a) the main control console isn’t operated by Scotty or a member of the engineering crew but Spock (!!!)
b) "This is the engineering section. There are a number of emergency back-up systems for the main controls. Over here are a number of control computers." Kirk
c) The warp drive control mechanisms seem to house the essential computer systems instead



Could this be an engine room facing forward (to the bow) feeding the main sensor- deflector dish where the data collected by the main sensor is stored and processed and therefore explaing the presence of the senior science officer working with the computers (required by this episode’s script )?

The location of this engine room would also match the exit point where the alien entity from “Day of the Dove” left the Enterprise in the original version.

It wouldn’t be the first time the engine room set had been used to represent a different location: In Season One the set was re-vamped to stand in for the Gymnasium (“Charlie X”) and/or the Event Room (“The Conscience of the King”), the Phaser Control Room (“Balance of Terror”) and the Starbase 11 Computer Center in “The Menagerie” (though admittedly, one would rather expect the Sensor Room of the Enterprise to look more like the Computer Center of Starbase 11).

In “The Immunity Syndrome” the secondary engineering control room / Emergency Manual Monitor featured the semi-circular control console of the Auxilary Control Room, suggesting this to be another EMM than the one previously seen in “Mirror, Mirror” and “I’Mudd” (and in later episodes) with a rectangular console.

Moreover, the momentary loss of inertial dampers both on the bridge and in this engine room suggested a ‘cathedral’ facing forward to the bow (however, it’s obscured by the GNDN “transformers” so one might take this as an excuse to be looking at a twin engine room with a cathedral facing aft / stern instead).



The engine room presented in “The Ultimate Computer” is a double-edged sword. It could either be in the forward Main Sensor-Deflector Engine Room (where it takes over from the control computers already there) or the Warp Engine Room aft suggested by the power socket below the grated wall opening (sealed shut in Season Three because of the “M-5 experience”?).

Had there been any doubt whether the Enterprise had one or more engine rooms, “The Omega Glory” provided a very clear answer (i.e. assuming the interior configuration of the Exeter and the Enterprise is essentially identical). During Kirk’s shipwide intercom call from the dim-lighted engine room (with the remains of Exeter’s engineering crew and an interesting location of the intercom monitor...)



we see another illuminated but deserted engine room which obviously can’t be the same one Kirk is making his call from (footage recycled from “The Ultimate Computer”).



There appears to be a high probability that the Warp Engine Room is the one where the EMM has the rectangular console (e.g. “I, Mudd”, “By Any Other Name”, “Is There In Truth No Beauty”, “Lights of Zetar”) and was first seen aboard the Enterprise in “The Changeling”.

“Elaan of Troyius” could have taken place in the forward Main Sensor-Deflector Engine Room of the engineering hull (suggested by the floor mounted shield generator device). Did Kryton sabotage the dilithium crystal converter assembly in this engine room (the moment the ship goes to warp the forward main deflectors will activate) or the grossly negligent guarded Warp Engine Room?

The open GNDN space near the room’s main entry (a small design change of this area previously seen in “The Ultimate Computer”) may suggest the Main Sensor-Deflector Engine Room as in “That Which Survives” that same area featured a closed room with indicators that connect straight to the matter-antimatter reactor in the engineering hull (“Reactor number three” where Spock located the alien entity in “Day of the Dove”?) and appears to be the Warp Engine Room towards the aft / stern of the engineering hull.

It appears the producers had decided to present the Season Two “Engineering Section” to be located in the engineering hull.

But then came the script for “Day of the Dove” that required the use of the Season One (impulse) engine room no longer available. The deliberate re-dressing of the Season Two engine room set (on a smaller scale than the one for “The Conscience of the King”) could suggest an attempt to simulate yet another engine room (in the saucer), but then would basically be a production compromise for a television “show” that shouldn’t be taken to serious or literal in an in-universe context:
a) The doorway got a new sign saying “Engineering Officer Scott"
(“headquarters for the engineering division”?)



b) the enigmatic soccer ball spheres on the structure housing the "dilithium crystal converter assembly" were painted gold

Summary: There is sufficient evidence to suggest the existence of at least two engine rooms located in the engineering hull.

The big question that now remains, is whether there could be three, i.e. that towards the aft / stern we have a twin engine room arrangement that essentially could look like this (post # 25): http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=119751&page=2
(Of course the Emergency Manual Monitor is missing and the Season One engine room should probably rather look like the one from “The Conscience of the King”).

The advantage would obviously be that all engine room variations seen during the series would be be there (more or less).

The disadvantage would obviously be that the circular corridor outside the Season Two engine room would be severely compromised if there was a twin-engine room arrangement towards the aft / stern of the engineering hull.

Bob
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Old December 12 2012, 03:11 PM   #59
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Timo wrote: View Post
If that were so, then why were they disrupting the "automatic helm and navigation control"?
Because that's the system that M-5 uses to steer the ship, so that's the system they have to disrupt. And never mind that most of what the system does is irrelevant to the events. That's true of most systems and most events.
And that system has navigation elements in it. It is relevant since we'd expect to see navigation elements on that display. It is only irrelevant if you are expending far more effort to prove that the display is what Chekov is looking at for the circuit information and not the buttons

Timo wrote: View Post
If it was as simple as cutting power to one nacelle to skid steer the ship we would have plenty of examples - but we don't.
Uh, where?
Indeed. Where? There are no examples of steering the ship with adjusting the power of one warp engine to cause a turn, as you allude to. Your argument that the warp engines are needed to warp steer (and thus be prominent in the helm control and navigation diagram) doesn't work.

Timo wrote: View Post
In "Ultimate Computer", our heroes would be interested in warp steering, and for that a diagram featuring the relationship between the helm and the warp steering machinery is a natural element.
And since warp "steering" appears to have nothing to do with the warp engines (other than to maintain warp) then it gets harder to argue that the warp engines are necessary in the diagram other than just a block that says "warp throttle setting".

For grins, here are some actual autopilot and control diagrams for comparison.



Timo wrote: View Post
It would be foolhardy to argue that every time that diagram shows up the ship's automatic helm and navigational controls have been re-routed and the normal circuits are dead
Now that would depend on whether the pixels indicating leads GEDE225 through 247 are amber or red, wouldn't it? In the former case, we're just seeing the standard helm circuits at standard mode, rather than dead as in this adventure.
Since they re-use that display it is unlikely to have any "helm and navigational control circuit" status since it would show the dead state.

It is rather fortunate that Chekov looked down at the buttons and never looked back at that display before confirming with Spock which removes the diagram from play as containing control circuit information.

In this case, it require more inventing for us to put control circuits into that diagram and then more inventing to why Chekov doesn't look back up at it again after checking some buttons to confirm that the circuits are dead.
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Old December 12 2012, 03:24 PM   #60
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

The engine room presented in “The Ultimate Computer” is a double-edged sword. It could either be in the forward Main Sensor-Deflector Engine Room (where it takes over from the control computers already there) or the Warp Engine Room aft suggested by the power socket below the grated wall opening (sealed shut in Season Three because of the “M-5 experience”?).
Is "Warp Engine Room aft" the same as "in the saucer"? Because that's the only place the "The Ultimate Computer" engine room fit can be due to that long curving hallway they used so prominently in the episode. That would put at least one Season 2 style engine room in the primary hull.

There are definitely multiple engine rooms and it would appear that you can have as many or as few as you want depending if you count some as upgraded through the series or not.
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