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Old December 10 2012, 04:07 PM   #16
throwback
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

That's why I included the comment that my results might not be 100% accurate.
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Old December 10 2012, 10:22 PM   #17
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

Dukhat wrote: View Post
What's also interesting is that if you read it right, that would mean that there's both a USS Neil Armstrong AND a USS Armstrong operating at the same time (the latter is a Challenger class vessel), unless they are actually supposed to be the same ship.
Maybe the latter is named for LOUIS Armstrong? Or, better yet, this guy.
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Old December 11 2012, 12:27 AM   #18
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
What's also interesting is that if you read it right, that would mean that there's both a USS Neil Armstrong AND a USS Armstrong operating at the same time (the latter is a Challenger class vessel), unless they are actually supposed to be the same ship.
Maybe the latter is named for LOUIS Armstrong? Or, better yet, this guy.
Well, if the ship was named after Louis Armstrong, wouldn't it have been called, you know, the U.S.S. Louis Armstrong? I mean the other ship is the Neil Armstrong...
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Old December 11 2012, 01:01 AM   #19
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

^ Then again, there is a ship called USS Roosevelt, but is it FDR or Teddy? Think about it.
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Old December 11 2012, 01:03 AM   #20
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

Memory Alpha has updated their image for this chart.

U.S.S. Hokule'a
*
The writer for the article states that this name is illegible.

U.S.S. Saratoga
* Another case of where the writer states that the name is illegible.

U.S.S. Da-Teplan
* A third case where the writer states the name is illegible.

U.S.S. Amber
* I disagree with the writer on this name. When I did the chart, I went through the name letter by letter, and compared each letter to one like it found elsewhere on the chart. In this example, if the name was Aries, then the final letter would look like the first letter in Saratoga or Sector. It doesn't; I then compared it to other letters and came to a determination that it was a R. From there, knowing that the first letter was an A and the last letter was a R, it was a process of filling in the rest.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starship_Deploy_Status
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Old December 11 2012, 01:04 AM   #21
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Then again, there is a ship called USS Roosevelt, but is it FDR or Teddy? Think about it.

Maybe it's for both. Howz about that?

throwback wrote: View Post
U.S.S. Amber
* I disagree with the writer on this name. When I did the chart, I went through the name letter by letter, and compared each letter to one like it found elsewhere on the chart. In this example, if the name was Aries, then the final letter would look like the first letter in Saratoga or Sector. It doesn't; I then compared it to other letters and came to a determination that it was a R. From there, knowing that the first letter was an A and the last letter was a R, it was a process of filling in the rest.
They probably assumed it said Aries based on my Flare Forums link. I would prefer it said Amber.
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Last edited by Dukhat; December 11 2012 at 01:21 AM.
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Old December 11 2012, 04:56 PM   #22
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

Maybe it's for both. Howz about that?
Indeed, the deeper meaning of a ship name is often only given in "backstage" material. I happen to have on my desk right now a pamphlet from a Perry frigate named after father and son Kaufmann, there being no way to tell what the name refers to unless one gets handed this pamphlet during a port visit...

The selection of names in Earth tradition is near-infinite, but so is the number of Starfleet vessels, it seems. Confusingly close names might well be in use. But I'd like to explain away any instances of actual overlap nevertheless!

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Old December 12 2012, 05:03 AM   #23
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

So let's have a little fun with this chart.

Because the Farouk El-Baz, []vicker, []cal, Da-Teplan, Amber, and the Yuri Gagarin don't have any other references (other than the El-Baz shuttle, which doesn't count), their appearances on the chart aren't problematic. (I'm assuming the Amber isn't the "Aries," and the two ships with partial names also don't equate to other known ship names).

There's also the NCC-30352, whose name is illegible for now, so there's nothing to be done for that yet.


So that leaves 13 ship names that also share names of other ships, most with different registries, most operating at the same time.

Anyway, let's whittle the chart down a tad:

1. U.S.S. Excelsior NCC-21145 - Other than the class ship Excelsior NCC-2000, the only other reference was in TNG "Interface," where a ship of this name was sent to find the U.S.S. Hera. One could plausibly say that it was this ship, not the NCC-2000, that was sent on this mission. It doesn't really contradict anything.

2. U.S.S. Apollo NCC-30000
- While the class ship of the Apollo class should technically be under 1XXXX in registry, there's no reason to assume that this is in fact the class ship. The original class ship could have been decommissioned or destroyed, and this ship could simply be a newer vessel with the same name, and not even of the Apollo class.

3. U.S.S. Hokule'a NCC-30187
- see above.

4. U.S.S. Neil Armstrong NCC-31806
- While technically its name is different from the Challenger class U.S.S. Armstrong, the name is obviously meant to honor the same person. It's also possible that the Neil Armstrong was decommissioned before the other Armstrong was built (anywhere between 2365 and 2373), although I would think that the Armstrong would then have a higher registry than NCC-57537, if registries are chronological.

5.
U.S.S. Yorktown NCC-20045 - Because the only other 24th century Yorktown is the Zodiac class NCC-61137, it's entirely possible that this Yorktown was decommissioned before the other one was built, although the latter's registry should probably be a bit higher, but it's still within reason.

6. U.S.S. Lexington
NCC-30405
- The DS9 episode "Explorers" makes it clear that the Nebula class Lexington NCC-61832 was in operation at least after 2369. So it's possible that this Lexington was decommissioned or destroyed sometime between 2365 and 2369, and the Nebula class ship was its replacement. The newer ship's reg should probably be a bit higher, but it's still within reason.

7. U.S.S. Atlantis NCC-3210
- This is a bit of an anomaly, as both references (this one and the Atlantis NCC-72007) are from displays that were not meant to be taken seriously. So it's debatable whether the ship even exists


So now this leaves six ships that would be classified as problematic:

1. U.S.S. Yamato
NCC-24383 - Whatever the accepted registry of the Galaxy class Yamato is, the ship was still in service during "Measure of a Man." That means that either this is at least the third registry for the same ship, or there was another Yamato in service at the same time the Galaxy Yamato was.

2. U.S.S. Constantinople
NCC-43622 - This ship was referenced three episodes before "Measure of a Man." The Encyclopedia gives the registry of NCC-34852. While it's possible but unlikely that the ship was destroyed and a newer ship was commissioned within three episodes, the newer ship should probably have a registry of NCC-7XXXX, if registries are chronological. But it's probably supposed to be the same ship.

3. U.S.S. Wellington NCC-33821 - This is obviously supposed to be the same ship referenced in "11001001," but the Encyclopedia gives the registry NCC-28473. Again, that Wellington could have been destroyed or decommissioned the year before and this Wellington could be the replacement, but again the registry should probably be 7XXXX.

4. U.S.S. Saratoga NCC-31640 - Again, this ship could have been destroyed before "Emissary" where we see the NCC-31911 Saratoga, but not only should Sisko's ship's reg be higher if it were brand new, but would Starfleet still be producing Miranda class ships after 2365?

5. U.S.S. Endeavour NCC-25330 - This is the least problematic ship, if we ignore the NCC-39272 from the "Conspiracy" diagram. It's quite possible that this ship was decommissioned and the Nebula class Endeavor NCC-71805 was commissioned around the same time.

6. U.S.S. Excalibur NCC-21534 - Again, this Excalibur could have been destroyed in the few years between "Measure of a Man" and the first time we see the Ambassador class ship in "Redemption," but then why would the newer ship have such a low registry, if regs are chronological?
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Old December 12 2012, 06:50 AM   #24
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

The Yamato had four registries - NCC-1305-E, NCC-24383, NCC-71807, and NCC-71808. The last is from the saucer. For myself, I don't see a solution here, and I have to say that the registry of the Yamato is unknown.
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Old December 12 2012, 08:47 AM   #25
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

5. U.S.S. Yorktown NCC-20045 -
Because the only other 24th century Yorktown is the Zodiac class NCC-61137

2. U.S.S. Constantinople NCC-43622 - This ship was referenced three episodes before "Measure of a Man." The Encyclopedia gives the registry of NCC-34852.

3. U.S.S. Wellington NCC-33821 - This is obviously supposed to be the same ship referenced in "11001001," but the Encyclopedia gives the registry NCC-28473.
None of these Encyclopedia registries have been identified onscreen so far.
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Old December 12 2012, 11:20 AM   #26
Timo
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

Exactly, and ignoring them sounds like a consistent thing to do from now on.

The original class ship could have been decommissioned or destroyed, and this ship could simply be a newer vessel with the same name, and not even of the Apollo class.
I'm ill at ease with these things. It's okay to have a USS Constellation after the retirement of the Constellation class ("The Abandoned" would appear to qualify), but rather confusing to have her before this "overlap" is eliminated.

OTOH,

5. U.S.S. Yorktown NCC-20045 - Because the only other 24th century Yorktown is the Zodiac class NCC-61137, it's entirely possible that this Yorktown was decommissioned before the other one was built, although the latter's registry should probably be a bit higher, but it's still within reason.
The competing Yorktown is from an alternate timeline, too. Plus its registry and class identity are completely noncanon.

6. U.S.S. Lexington NCC-30405 - The DS9 episode "Explorers" makes it clear that the Nebula class Lexington NCC-61832 was in operation at least after 2369. So it's possible that this Lexington was decommissioned or destroyed sometime between 2365 and 2369, and the Nebula class ship was its replacement. The newer ship's reg should probably be a bit higher, but it's still within reason.
Agreed here. But see the Endeavour.

7. U.S.S. Atlantis NCC-3210 - This is a bit of an anomaly, as both references (this one and the Atlantis NCC-72007) are from displays that were not meant to be taken seriously. So it's debatable whether the ship even exists
The higher-registry ship was mentioned in a display that Data judged to contain suspicious things...

4. U.S.S. Saratoga NCC-31640 - Again, this ship could have been destroyed before "Emissary" where we see the NCC-31911 Saratoga, but not only should Sisko's ship's reg be higher if it were brand new, but would Starfleet still be producing Miranda class ships after 2365?
I'd hate go give up the idea of chronological registry number allocation for something this minor.

5. U.S.S. Endeavour NCC-25330 - This is the least problematic ship, if we ignore the NCC-39272 from the "Conspiracy" diagram. It's quite possible that this ship was decommissioned and the Nebula class Endeavor NCC-71805 was commissioned around the same time.
And the only problem with this excellent interpretation is that it somewhat undermines a similar thing done with the Lexington.

Then again, the registry of the DS9 vessel is completely noncanon, too. The model apparently wasn't relabeled, and we never got a related Okudagram.

6. U.S.S. Excalibur NCC-21534 - Again, this Excalibur could have been destroyed in the few years between "Measure of a Man" and the first time we see the Ambassador class ship in "Redemption," but then why would the newer ship have such a low registry, if regs are chronological?
The registry of the "Redemption" ship remains somewhat noncanonical until the Okudagram from the episode gets blu-rayed.

Timo Saloniemi

Last edited by Timo; December 12 2012 at 02:54 PM.
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Old December 12 2012, 12:56 PM   #27
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

It's okay to have a USS Constellation after the retirement of the Constellation class ("The Abandoned" would appear to qualify), but rather confusing to have her before this "overlap" is eliminated.
But we have precedence. The USS Nova NCC-73515 from "Star Trek: Nemesis".

Then again, the registry of the DS9 vessel is completely noncanon, too. The model apparently wasn't relabeled, and we never got a related Okudagram.
The 71805-registry appeared on the tachyon grid okudagram.

The registry of the "Redemption" ship remains somewhat noncanonical until the Okudagram from the episode gets blu-rayed.
That okudagram was reproduced in the Encyclopedia.

And the Lexington's 61832-registry didn't appear onscreen AFAIK, so a higher registry could be possible.
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Old December 12 2012, 01:20 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

But we have precedence. The USS Nova NCC-73515 from "Star Trek: Nemesis".
Alas.

Then again, with the track record of that chart, the ship probably is "really" named USS Navo.

The 71805-registry appeared on the tachyon grid okudagram.
The registry of the Lexington never appeared anywhere, outside this "Measure of Man" graphic. The ship wasn't involved in the tachyon grid thing.

That okudagram was reproduced in the Encyclopedia.
But not necessarily correctly. I'd tend to view all Okuda-provided information with some caution, considering...

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Old December 12 2012, 05:46 PM   #29
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

Timo wrote: View Post
Exactly, and ignoring them sounds like a consistent thing to do from now on.
But the question is, what's more official? A chart made with what seems to be just preliminary information that would change later, and was not meant to be seen up close, or an official publication like the Encyclopedia, made by the same guy who made the chart, with information that he clearly wanted to have supercede this chart?

I'm ill at ease with these things. It's okay to have a USS Constellation after the retirement of the Constellation class ("The Abandoned" would appear to qualify), but rather confusing to have her before this "overlap" is eliminated.
I can understand that logic. However, that would then mean that these are the class ships of the Apollo and Hokule'a class, which have much higher registries than the respective ships of their class.

The competing Yorktown is from an alternate timeline, too. Plus its registry and class identity are completely noncanon.
While I know the canonicity of the Encyclopedia, I was using it as a reference point for all this, since the same guy who made this chart made that book

Now with that said, I'm going under the assumption that this is the same ship as the one Riker mentions in "Frame of Mind," since the registry seems to indicate a ship built at least before the Enterprise-D, so it would in fact exist in this timeline. But that's just my supposition.

The higher-registry ship was mentioned in a display that Data judged to contain suspicious things...
Again, while it's futile to seriously debate the merits of displays that had listings like the Elmer Fudd and the Non Sequitor, I'd find it hard to believe that a change in a ship's registry number would constitute what Data thought of as "suspicious."

And the only problem with this excellent interpretation is that it somewhat undermines a similar thing done with the Lexington.
Are you referring to that mentioned-but-not-seen Excelsior class Lexington from TNG? Obviously that was just a goof made before it was known that the Nebula class ship would have been operating at the same time.

I'd hate go give up the idea of chronological registry number allocation for something this minor.
The problem with that is that Sisko's Saratoga has it's number on the hull. We therefore can't reconcile it being the same ship.

Then again, the registry of the DS9 vessel is completely noncanon, too. The model apparently wasn't relabeled, and we never got a related Okudagram.
True, but wouldn't 30405 be a bit low for a Nebula?

The registry of the "Redemption" ship remains somewhat noncanonical until the Okudagram from the episode gets blu-rayed.
Wasn't the registry of the Excalibur printed on its saucer? And either way, we don't need blu-ray caps of the tachyon grid; I can see it just fine, and the Excalibur's registry is 26517.
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Old December 12 2012, 06:49 PM   #30
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Re: Ships In "The Measure of a Man"

Dukhat wrote: View Post
But the question is, what's more official? A chart made with what seems to be just preliminary information that would change later, and was not meant to be seen up close, or an official publication like the Encyclopedia
Well, let's have a quick look at the Enc. ship list:

Some things were obviously made up to fill the gaps. Like the registries and classes for the Antares, Carolina, and Archon and pretty much all the Constitution-class registries. Some registries and classes are just plain wrong, like 1937 for the Saratoga, 59983 for the Raman and Olympic-class for the Biko.

Considering all this, I'd say this chart is more official than any unverified information from the Encyclopedia. It doesn't contain any silly names and at the time TMoaM was aired, the only problematic ship on this list is the Yamato.

with information that he clearly wanted to have supercede this chart?
That's not so clear. Maybe this chart got somehow lost and he invented new registries to fill the gaps.

BTW: The Yorktown also appeared on the DS9 Whispers shiplist.

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