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Old December 9 2012, 02:04 AM   #31
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

I think Sisko in "Emissary" was a great display of diplomacy, trying to find common ground with a very alien species, helping them to understand concepts totally foreign to them but the basis of our existence. After he was done he had secured safe passage through the Wormhole and opened up a whole new quadrant.

As for worst: any diplomatic situation where Archer was involved pretty much.
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Old December 9 2012, 07:11 PM   #32
Xhiandra
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Yeah, it takes two to go to war. If Poland didn't want to go to war with Germany they could have just said no.
I hope that's just a bad attempt at sarcasm.
Yeah, I was taken aback as well.
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Old December 10 2012, 05:05 AM   #33
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Not entirely, because it does take two (or more) to have a war.
That quote didn't 'take you aback' enough to notice that as obvious sarcasm? Holy crap.

That quote was blaming the Federation for the war and also blaming every invaded country for being invaded.
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Old December 10 2012, 05:55 AM   #34
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Yeah, it takes two to go to war. If Poland didn't want to go to war with Germany they could have just said no.

That quote was blaming the Federation for the war and also blaming every invaded country for being invaded.
The Dominion did warn the Federation off, and there was an opportunity to steer clear of war. Definitely should have mined the mouth of that wormhole sooner. However, every invaded country throughout time didn't "have it coming." A lot of suffering could have been prevented by the invaders simply staying inside their own territories.

Don't get me wrong, some wars serve a purpose.

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Old December 10 2012, 04:07 PM   #35
C.E. Evans
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Not entirely, because it does take two (or more) to have a war.
That quote didn't 'take you aback' enough to notice that as obvious sarcasm? Holy crap.

That quote was blaming the Federation for the war and also blaming every invaded country for being invaded.
You're very mistaken about my quote and also including things I didn't say, but Merry Christmas summed up my sentiments exactly:
Merry Christmas wrote:
The Dominion did warn the Federation off, and there was an opportunity to steer clear of war. Definitely should have mined the mouth of that wormhole sooner.

Closing the wormhole may not have been a popular choice for our heroes, but it was definitely an option from the very beginning.
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Old December 10 2012, 04:40 PM   #36
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Closing the wormhole may not have been a popular choice for our heroes, but it was definitely an option from the very beginning.
They should've closed off the wormhole. Then they would have had seventy years to prepare for the Dominion.
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Old December 10 2012, 09:08 PM   #37
Nightdiamond
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

The Dominion was the aggressor in all this, so the ultimate blame for the war falls on them.

The Dominion's attitude is unrealistic and basically crazy. They want to bring order to and conquer the entire galaxy.

Which means endless warfare, bullying people, and a chance that some power or someone is finally going to nail them good.

As far diplomatic screw ups, the Dominion made the first and biggest mistake, but at times the Fed's attitude was just as hard to understand.

They just discovered the wormhole a year or two ago, and already they're on the other side setting up colonies?

I'd be really uncomfortable about setting up a colony on the other side of the wormhole (which could collapse at any moment, who knows) 70 years away, especially after hearing stories about the Dominion.

For Starfleet to let the wormhole stay open as long as they did, with no dedicated fleet to guard the station, was just waiting for trouble IMO.
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Old December 10 2012, 09:20 PM   #38
C.E. Evans
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

I think there is sometimes a price to be paid for boldly going where no one has gone before. Sometimes you end up someplace you're not wanted and the locals aren't happy at all to see you.
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Old December 10 2012, 09:21 PM   #39
BillJ
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think there is sometimes a price to be paid for boldly going where no one has gone before. Sometimes you end up someplace you're not wanted and the locals aren't happy at all to see you.
Bingo.

You'd have thought the Federation would've learned this lesson after what happened on Cestus III.
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Old December 11 2012, 06:31 AM   #40
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

I'd say the worst was A Taste of Armageddon. The Enterprise was warned not to enter an independent system. They went in anyway with the intention of setting up a treaty port.* When they became involved in the war Kirk threatened to kill everyone on the planet and then later totally overthrew a system that, to us, was barbaric but worked for the tow planets involved. It may not have been a war that the Federation would have fought but in a very odd way it lept the peace. Cities were not bombed. Disease was not rampant. Economies were not destroyed. Just showing up escalated the war. Way to go Federation.

*A treaty port is a port that is established in a country at the barrel of a gun. From Wikipedia:

The first treaty ports in China were British and were established at the conclusion of the First Opium War by the Treaty of Nanking in 1842. As well as ceding the island of Hong Kong to the United Kingdom in perpetuity, the treaty also established five treaty ports at Shanghai, Canton, Ningpo, Fuchow, and Amoy. French and American concessions followed soon afterwards.

And this:

“Unequal treaty” is a term used in specific reference to a number of treaties imposed by Western powers, during the 19th and early 20th centuries, on Qing Dynasty China and late Tokugawa Japan. The term is also applied to treaties imposed during the same time frame on late Joseon Dynasty Korea by the post-Meiji Restoration Empire of Japan.
The treaties were often signed by these Asian states after suffering military defeat in various skirmishes or wars with the foreign powers or when there was a threat of military action by those powers.

Not really the sort of thing that you would imagine the "enlightened" Federation would do but there it is.
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Old December 11 2012, 07:25 PM   #41
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

^ To his credit, Kirk seem reluctant to enter the system once warned off. And I contiue to believe that general order 24 was nothing more than a prearrange bluff between Kirk and whoever would be in command of the ship when the "order" was given.

Uhura would have heard the order come in from Kirk, but she was openly shocked when Scotty detailed it's meaning standing next to her. Unless she is unaware of the various general orders.

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Old December 11 2012, 11:29 PM   #42
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

Uhura simply may not have had clearance to some General Orders. We know in the 24th century that the Omega Directive was only known by command grade officers and above.
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Old December 12 2012, 05:44 AM   #43
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

Exactly. I would imagine that the knowledge that the Federation regards the necessity of killing everyone on a planet so likely that they have a General Order regarding it wouldn't go over too well.

Kirk did object for a second or two but fell in line fairly quickly. And when his ship was targeted, legitimately as the Federation had no business being there when they were warned away, then he took it upon himself to totally disrupt the civilization on not one but two planets. Imagine that the promised negotiations fail and it leads to all out nuclear war. What would the Federation say then? Whoops?

If either Eminiar VII or Vendikar had asked for Federation assistance then it's a different story. However, they were there simply to establish a treaty port, regardless of the wishes of the systems inhabitants.
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Old December 12 2012, 06:09 PM   #44
BillJ
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

Honestly, the Eminians could have at least made the effort to get the Enterprise crew excused from the disintegration chambers. That could have been the first piece of the puzzle to bring the two sides together...

"Hey, we've got a ship in orbit that isn't one of ours that got caught up in an attack. We need to amend the treaty to exempt extra-system ships from our wargame since we're seeing more and more traffic. Or else someone is going to come in and end this game permanently."

Of course, then you don't have an episode.
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Old December 13 2012, 05:05 AM   #45
RPJOB
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

But there's no indication of any ships other than the Enterprise or the Valiant (50 years earlier) had ever visited the system. Everyone other than the Federation are apparently smart or respectful enough to acknowledge the Code 7-10 and stay away.

And who's business is it what the two planets do to each other? Neither one is asking for outside assistance. They just want to be left alone. But, like the First Federation and the Melkotian found out, "keep out" doesn't seem to mean anything to Starfleet. Like a 24th century religious zealot, they don't think it could possibly apply to them because they're so good and pure and just so darn friendly so they keep ringing planetary doorbells dispite the "No Trespassing" signs.
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