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Old December 10 2012, 12:42 AM   #976
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
Oddly enough, I don't consider saving someone from suicide "fucking with them" or "demeaning" them.

That depends on why they are saving another from suicide.

As Kegg pointed out:

but therefore feel a posessive need to dictate their choices and their freedom, assuming an arbitrary, unearned and unasked for status as guardian... yeah
...the reason Andrea became pissy with Dale in general--even after she was seemingly over his suicide intervention. Dale seem to want to mold her into his fantasy--someone who shared his beliefs (and hang ups).
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Old December 10 2012, 01:09 AM   #977
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
Oddly enough, I don't consider saving someone from suicide "fucking with them" or "demeaning" them.
He didn't save her. He guilt-tripped her - and only her (that other people were going to also commit suicide is besides the point). And after that he's seen confiscating her gun and generally treating her like his ward, which she's not. She's an adult and a lawyer, and this kind of infantilizing presumptiveness was pretty uncomfortable.

Presumably, you also feel that Carol is "creepy" and should die. After all, she is an older woman attracted to a younger man and she "fucked with him" and "demeaned" him when she "manipulated" him by appealing to his human feelings.
Carol did actually have a bizarre (and tbh out of character) Lady MacBeth moment when she pushed Daryl to take over from Rick in the season two finale. That definitely qualifies as manipulative.

Other than that scene her relationship to Daryl has never implied the kind of mind games Dale played with Andrea. She's never demanded Daryl give his weapons to her, treat him like he's her non-adult son. So far as I can remember she never tried to guilt trip him either (but there was a lot of stuff going on about Sophia and it could be a scene has slipped my mind).
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Old December 10 2012, 04:02 AM   #978
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

you guys think Carol is older than Daryl?


and seriously, wouldn't we all push Daryl into taking control from Rick?
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Old December 10 2012, 04:35 AM   #979
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

Kegg wrote: View Post
It basically comes off as 'there are people who care about Andrea but we're okay with leaving Jacqui to die.'
I always forget about Jacqui. Good point about her.

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
...but this is never explained on camera, so the audience should not be expected to create a zombie physiology that does not exist, or based on collective creative solutions used by other zombie films.
Most viewers wouldn't care.

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Dale seem to want to mold her into his fantasy--someone who shared his beliefs (and hang ups).
Andrea was a Civil Rights lawyer. Given that informed background, it makes sense for her to already agree with Dale on a lot of things.

Kegg wrote: View Post
So far as I can remember she never tried to guilt trip him either (but there was a lot of stuff going on about Sophia and it could be a scene has slipped my mind).
Yeah, I'm pretty sure all the guilt Daryl feels about Sophia is self-imposed.
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Old December 10 2012, 05:01 AM   #980
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

wissaboo wrote: View Post
you guys think Carol is older than Daryl?
Going by the actors age Melissa McBride is 47 and Norman Reedus is 43.
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Old December 10 2012, 10:40 AM   #981
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
...the reason Andrea became pissy with Dale in general--even after she was seemingly over his suicide intervention. Dale seem to want to mold her into his fantasy--someone who shared his beliefs (and hang ups).
I only saw someone who saved her life and continued to worry about her and tried to cultivate in her a healthier state of mind.

Kegg wrote: View Post
He didn't save her. He guilt-tripped her - and only her (that other people were going to also commit suicide is besides the point). And after that he's seen confiscating her gun and generally treating her like his ward, which she's not. She's an adult and a lawyer, and this kind of infantilizing presumptiveness was pretty uncomfortable.
She was going to commit suicide. She may be an adult and a lawyer, but she was going to commit suicide. He saved her and continued to watch over her. Have you never-- either in fiction or, perish forbid, in real life-- known someone who was self destructive, needed help, was resistant to that help and needed to be pushed and prodded in whatever way is necessary? Because it happens quite frequently, even when there's not a Zombie Apocalypse on.

Other than that scene her relationship to Daryl has never implied the kind of mind games Dale played with Andrea. She's never demanded Daryl give his weapons to her, treat him like he's her non-adult son. So far as I can remember she never tried to guilt trip him either (but there was a lot of stuff going on about Sophia and it could be a scene has slipped my mind).
She would have no need to take his weapons, since he never tried to commit suicide. And she did try various approaches to getting through his defenses by appealing to his feelings, as happens in relationships between people.
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Old December 10 2012, 01:56 PM   #982
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
Have you never-- either in fiction or, perish forbid, in real life-- known someone who was self destructive, needed help, was resistant to that help and needed to be pushed and prodded in whatever way is necessary?
And so he didn't insist Jacqui leave with him... why?

Precisely.

This isn't about Andrea. This is about him. She doesn't get to do that to him, because he wants her. As a friend, a daughter, a lover, in what sense he wants her is not as important as the knowledge that he wants her and he will do what he can to keep a hold on that. After this display he thinks he deserves a medal or something, or at least, automatically, love and trust from Andrea (even as he holds on to her gun).

wissaboo wrote: View Post
you guys think Carol is older than Daryl?
Yes? I always thought Carol was a little older than Daryl, although it's true people often assume the age gap is significantly bigger probably due to the fact Carol has grey hair and Daryl does not (Melissa McBride is 47, Norman Reedus is 43).

It's a much smaller age gap than the one between Dale and Andrea, though, however one splices it.
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Old December 10 2012, 04:29 PM   #983
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

Enterprise is Great wrote: View Post
wissaboo wrote: View Post
you guys think Carol is older than Daryl?
Going by the actors age Melissa McBride is 47 and Norman Reedus is 43.
wow, she's 47? she looks great.

that's hardly an age difference that is worth mentioning though. Unless you are teenagers a 4 year difference is nothing.
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Old December 10 2012, 04:45 PM   #984
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

wissaboo wrote: View Post
that's hardly an age difference that is worth mentioning though. Unless you are teenagers a 4 year difference is nothing.
That's true. It's also true even if Norman Reedus is playing a character younger than his age (Lauren Cohan is 30 but Maggie is 22, Emiley Kinney is 28 but Beth is 17) and/or Carol is playing older. However different the ages of Daryl and Carol are, it's not an equivalent gap to Dale and Andrea.
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Old December 10 2012, 05:23 PM   #985
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

Kestrel wrote: View Post
Andrea was a Civil Rights lawyer. Given that informed background, it makes sense for her to already agree with Dale on a lot of things.
Apparently Dale assumed too much, as she had another side Dale did not consider, hence her rapid move toward being a wannabe asskicker/gunslinger and sharing some of Shane's worldview--the polar opposite of Dale.
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Old December 10 2012, 07:18 PM   #986
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

wissaboo wrote: View Post
Enterprise is Great wrote: View Post
wissaboo wrote: View Post
you guys think Carol is older than Daryl?
Going by the actors age Melissa McBride is 47 and Norman Reedus is 43.
wow, she's 47? she looks great.

that's hardly an age difference that is worth mentioning though. Unless you are teenagers a 4 year difference is nothing.
Yea, I knew melissa McBride was in her late 40s, and yea, she looks great for her age, but, I had no idea Norman Reedus was in his 40s, I woulda guessed mid-30s
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Old December 10 2012, 11:36 PM   #987
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

^^ I would have guessed about 30. He doesn't look anywhere near that old.

Kegg wrote: View Post
And so he didn't insist Jacqui leave with him... why?
I don't really remember Jacqui, so I'd have to rewatch to know for sure, but presumably, in the heat of the crisis, he focused on his friend.

This isn't about Andrea. This is about him. She doesn't get to do that to him, because he wants her. As a friend, a daughter, a lover, in what sense he wants her is not as important as the knowledge that he wants her and he will do what he can to keep a hold on that. After this display he thinks he deserves a medal or something, or at least, automatically, love and trust from Andrea (even as he holds on to her gun).
That's just a negative spin on him caring about her-- you can make any relationship sound selfish in that way. The point is that he cared enough about her to save her, to even risk his own life to save her, and then kept an eye on her, and kept dangerous things away from her when she continued to exhibit suicidal behavior. There's nothing creepy about that in the slightest.
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Old December 10 2012, 11:42 PM   #988
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
I don't really remember Jacqui,
Well if you can't remember one of the biggest dick moves Dale pulled, that might be why you look at him so favourably. Man literally did not care if Jacqui died, but then, Jacqui's not the one he had an interest in.

That's just a negative spin on him caring about her-- you can make any relationship sound selfish in that way.
Someone assuming a guardian role of an adult with whom you have no relationship with (but may desire one) is not just something that sounds pretty selfish, it's not something you find in any realtionship. It's why the comparisons to Rick and Lori and Daryl and Carol don't wash - those are relationships which both parties entered into willingly. Dale pushed himself on Andrea.
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Old December 10 2012, 11:59 PM   #989
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

Dale and anyone else was clearly a paternal type relationship while all the rest, with the exclusion of carl, are a relationship of two equals.
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Old December 11 2012, 10:30 AM   #990
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 3

^^ No doubt, but that doesn't make it creepy.

Kegg wrote: View Post
Well if you can't remember one of the biggest dick moves Dale pulled, that might be why you look at him so favourably. Man literally did not care if Jacqui died, but then, Jacqui's not the one he had an interest in.
Maybe or maybe not. Nobody's perfect. Again, in a time of crisis, people tend to focus on their friends over strangers.

Someone assuming a guardian role of an adult with whom you have no relationship with (but may desire one) is not just something that sounds pretty selfish, it's not something you find in any realtionship. It's why the comparisons to Rick and Lori and Daryl and Carol don't wash - those are relationships which both parties entered into willingly. Dale pushed himself on Andrea.
And again, this happens all the time with people who are suicidal or otherwise self-destructive. You've got to keep pushing until you get through to them. I'm surprised you're not aware of something so basic.
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