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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 7 2012, 09:23 PM   #91
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Insurrection

BillJ wrote: View Post
Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
In a universe where people will kill you for your shoes, what effect do you think a fountain of youth (one that is collectable, portable and capable of being sub-divided) will have on people after the knowledge of it becomes generally known?


This has been my position for years. Once the secret about the planet gets out, the Ba'ku become a major pain in the ass for the Federation/Starfleet. And whomever comes calling for those particles the next time may not care whether the Ba'ku live or die in the process of extraction.

They go back to being mortal, but their culture will go on. It won't get eradicated.
Or they may just wait and see how the federation's possible study of the rings would go and just steal that information or just outright offer something for it, less trouble that way seeing as you don't need a fleet to travel very close to federation space which they might attack even if they weren't defending the Baku since you know automatic act of war in some cases and everything.
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Old December 7 2012, 09:31 PM   #92
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

They never get to know about it.

er, so the Federation Council, the Son'a, all those Starfleet observers we saw at the beginning, the Enterprise crew, etc. all agree to participate in a massive cover-up, huh?
Yeah, I mean its not like the federation didn't bother to tell anyone about genesis before Khan set it off right....

Oh, wait.


nice try, but Genesis was a classified Starfleet project from the beginning. That would be covered by their oaths as officers not to give out classified info.


The Briar Patch ring magic isn't a classified Starfleet project, nor are the Son'a members of Starfleet. Why would they and Starfleet officers agree to cover-up in order to protect the Baku's selfish lifestyle?
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Old December 7 2012, 09:53 PM   #93
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
The Briar Patch ring magic isn't a classified Starfleet project, nor are the Son'a members of Starfleet. Why would they and Starfleet officers agree to cover-up
Well the Son'a probably don't want to have annoying people with fleets going around claiming everything they see bothering them seeing as they live there now I mean subspace weapons used to blow them to hell if they start shooting don't grow on trees.

in order to protect the Baku's selfish lifestyle?
There you go making moral judgments about people based on their reasonable reactions to being spied on and almost kidnapped in their sleep.
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Old December 7 2012, 10:51 PM   #94
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
The Briar Patch ring magic isn't a classified Starfleet project
It's not? In the film they say that the Federation public doesn't know about it, and that not even the Council really knows what's going on, and Picard only gets to know what the "anomalies" in the Briar Patch are because he gets the Enterprise there uninvited. The fountain of youth effect of the metaphasic radiation was something the Enterprise crew found out for themselves, they weren't told about it.
nor are the Son'a members of Starfleet.
The Son'a are a group of shady individuals that supply the Dominion with Ketracell white, used illegal weapons, and only hopped in bed with the Federation because the planet was in their territory. The Son'a certainly kept it a secret, as they also told Starfleet only what they needed to know.
Why would they and Starfleet officers agree to cover-up in order to protect the Baku's selfish lifestyle?
Because they probably don't see it as "selfish".
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Old December 7 2012, 11:43 PM   #95
BillJ
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Re: Insurrection

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
...and that not even the Council really knows what's going ...
No where does the film say that.
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Old December 8 2012, 02:52 AM   #96
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
The Briar Patch ring magic isn't a classified Starfleet project
It's not? In the film they say that the Federation public doesn't know about it, and that not even the Council really knows what's going on, and Picard only gets to know what the "anomalies" in the Briar Patch are because he gets the Enterprise there uninvited. The fountain of youth effect of the metaphasic radiation was something the Enterprise crew found out for themselves, they weren't told about it.
nor are the Son'a members of Starfleet.
The Son'a are a group of shady individuals that supply the Dominion with Ketracell white, used illegal weapons, and only hopped in bed with the Federation because the planet was in their territory. The Son'a certainly kept it a secret, as they also told Starfleet only what they needed to know.
Why would they and Starfleet officers agree to cover-up in order to protect the Baku's selfish lifestyle?
Because they probably don't see it as "selfish".

yes, the REMOVAL of the Baku was kept secret for obvious reasons, but the resource itself COULDN'T have stayed secret, because they eventually planned to have the Federation population as a whole use it. ( even if they planned to put the magic particles in the drinking water secretly or something like that, don't you think that when blind folks started re-growing eyes and boobs started to magically firm-up, questions would be asked?)
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Old December 8 2012, 03:55 AM   #97
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
yes, the REMOVAL of the Baku was kept secret for obvious reasons, but the resource itself COULDN'T have stayed secret, because they eventually planned to have the Federation population as a whole use it. ( even if they planned to put the magic particles in the drinking water secretly or something like that, don't you think that when blind folks started re-growing eyes and boobs started to magically firm-up, questions would be asked?)
I don't know we are talking about a civilization that once invented a device that could make planets and resurrect the dead, so people might just assume the federation created something else with their magic super science, especially since that accidently found something similar with the transporter.
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Old December 8 2012, 09:11 PM   #98
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Re: Insurrection

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Well the Son'a probably don't want to have annoying people with fleets going around claiming everything they see bothering them seeing as they live there now
What do you mean "they" live there now? We saw a single Sona going to visit his mother at the end of the movie.

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Old December 9 2012, 08:12 AM   #99
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Re: Insurrection

In the video game sequel i think starfleet builds a starbase to protect it.
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Old December 9 2012, 04:46 PM   #100
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

Phily B wrote: View Post
In the video game sequel i think starfleet builds a starbase to protect it.

see, that's what I figured was the answer they'd go with-protection from Starfleet. Which is just asinine-if Starfleet is going to protect them militarily, they should incorporate the Baku into the UFP, which would of course give them access to the system's resources.

And if they're not incorporating them into the UFP, then WHY are they intervening in this issue? I mean, they wouldn't lift a finger to help the Bajorans against the Cardassians, but here they'll devote resources to the Baku's defense.

Our "heroes" ladies and gentlemen-they won't try to stop an occupation resulting in mass oppression, forced labor, and slavery, but they'll go out of their way to protect a small village that's hoarding a valuable medical resource from having to give up their privileged lifestyle.
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Old December 9 2012, 08:33 PM   #101
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
Our "heroes" ladies and gentlemen-they won't try to stop an occupation resulting in mass oppression, forced labor, and slavery, but they'll go out of their way to protect a small village that's hoarding a valuable medical resource from having to give up their privileged lifestyle.
Modern Trek has proven itself to have far more conservative values than The Original Series did.
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Old December 9 2012, 09:30 PM   #102
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Re: Insurrection

BillJ wrote: View Post
Modern Trek has proven itself to have far more conservative values than The Original Series did.
I've alway seen the later Trek as the more liberal in it's philosophy, and the "60's Trek as possessing the more conservative values.

sonak wrote: View Post
they should incorporate the Baku into the UFP, which would of course give them access to the system's resources
They already had access, whether they will "post-movie" avail themselves of those resources, that the question.

If the Baku were sent to another Federation world, to be incorporated, what would be their fate? Their situation would be similar to when they first arrived at the ring planet, prior to the realization of the rings properties. A new community to build, and a life to lead, this time perhaps with the assistance of their Federation neighbors.

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Old December 9 2012, 10:35 PM   #103
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Modern Trek has proven itself to have far more conservative values than The Original Series did.
I've alway seen the later Trek as the more liberal in it's philosophy, and the "60's Trek as possessing the more conservative values.

sonak wrote: View Post
they should incorporate the Baku into the UFP, which would of course give them access to the system's resources
They already had access, whether they will "post-movie" avail themselves of those resources, that the question.

If the Baku were sent to another Federation world, to be incorporated, what would be their fate? Their situation would be similar to when they first arrived at the ring planet, prior to the realization of the rings properties. A new community to build, and a life to lead, this time perhaps with the assistance of their Federation neighbors.


I'm with BillJ on this one. I think modern Trek often contained messages that were pretty at-odds with the more liberal spirit of TOS.(Not including the gender attitudes, of course, which I realize is a pretty big exception.) Take this movie for example-I think Kirk would have thought the Baku were stagnant and not some kind of superior group like Picard seemed to think they were.

As to your second question, I don't see that as a likely scenario. I think the obvious implication of the end of INS, "review" by the Council aside, is that the Baku won't have to move at all. The truth is that their culture was unsustainable apart from the renewing resources, because for an agrarian society, they didn't have the population, and they only had the time to get the work done because of their extended lifespans.
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Old December 10 2012, 02:20 AM   #104
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
Take this movie for example-I think Kirk would have thought the Baku were stagnant and not some kind of superior group like Picard seemed to think they were.
But doesn't that paint Picard as the liberal, and Kirk as the conservative? The only time in TOS that Kirk blatantly defied a direct order from a senior officer was in Amok Time. If the Admiral in Insurrection directly told Kirk to go, TOS Kirk likely would have left the Brier Patch. The conservative Kirk was tied into the Starfleet hierarchy.

While Kirk enjoyed fresh air now and again, the life style of a hippy commune wouldn't appealed to him. Certainly not to the point where his personal admiration for the Baku (if any) would have lead him to defy his instructions.

Kirk wouldn't have screwed over the hundreds of billions people in the Federation, to advance his own personal principals.

I think the obvious implication of the end of INS, "review" by the Council aside, is that the Baku won't have to move at all.
I also believe this was the intent of the story.

However, I remember a somewhat similar request in Journey's End (by Admiral Ball-Breaker) for the Council to re-examine one of their decision, that of moving the Native Americans in that episode. The Council ultimately confirmed their previous decision to relocate the inhabitants.

i would like to think that the Insurrection review would result in the Baku openly being relocated, a second collector being constructed, and the rings being used to help people across the Federation, and the some of the particles going to the Sona as well. The Baku would receive the same access as the rest of the people in the Federation.

their culture was unsustainable
A culture of being immortal? Perhaps, but when they first arrived at the ring planet I don't believe that was their aim. The immortality was a surprise.

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Old December 10 2012, 05:39 PM   #105
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Take this movie for example-I think Kirk would have thought the Baku were stagnant and not some kind of superior group like Picard seemed to think they were.
But doesn't that paint Picard as the liberal, and Kirk as the conservative? The only time in TOS that Kirk blatantly defied a direct order from a senior officer was in Amok Time. If the Admiral in Insurrection directly told Kirk to go, TOS Kirk likely would have left the Brier Patch. The conservative Kirk was tied into the Starfleet hierarchy.

While Kirk enjoyed fresh air now and again, the life style of a hippy commune wouldn't appealed to him. Certainly not to the point where his personal admiration for the Baku (if any) would have lead him to defy his instructions.

Kirk wouldn't have screwed over the hundreds of billions people in the Federation, to advance his own personal principals.

I think the obvious implication of the end of INS, "review" by the Council aside, is that the Baku won't have to move at all.
I also believe this was the intent of the story.

However, I remember a somewhat similar request in Journey's End (by Admiral Ball-Breaker) for the Council to re-examine one of their decision, that of moving the Native Americans in that episode. The Council ultimately confirmed their previous decision to relocate the inhabitants.

i would like to think that the Insurrection review would result in the Baku openly being relocated, a second collector being constructed, and the rings being used to help people across the Federation, and the some of the particles going to the Sona as well. The Baku would receive the same access as the rest of the people in the Federation.

their culture was unsustainable
A culture of being immortal? Perhaps, but when they first arrived at the ring planet I don't believe that was their aim. The immortality was a surprise.


I see what you're saying, but I think we're using "liberal" and "conservative" in different senses. You mean "liberal" in the sense of appreciation and tolerance for all sorts of alternative communities and arrangements, while I meant as "forward-thinking" and "progressive." The Baku to me, are not a group to be admired because they're stagnant and their views on technology are just silly. And we agree on the way Kirk would likely have acted here. He would have put the good of the Federation first.

You're right about the Baku finding their immortality to be a surprise, but I'm saying had they NOT found themselves immortal, they would have had to reproduce at much greater numbers, and without their leisurely lifestyles as a result of having so much time on their hands and getting constantly renewed, I'm not sure how "charming" they would have found spending hours and hours every day doing hard work on a farm.
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