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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old December 8 2012, 05:54 AM   #121
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

In a way Voyager wrote itself into a corner where it couldn't develop any characters.

TNG and DS9 characters got most of their development externally. The farengi with Zek and Moogie, Kira with the prophets and various Bajorans, Data with Lore and Soong, Worf with other Klingons. In Voyager even having the Kazons as recurring characters was a little absurd, there's no way they should have been able to keep up with Voyager's speed over two thousand light years. They brought each character to the logical finishing point of their initial arcs in the second season. They had two choices: Bring in a new character with an inexhaustible arc, or break the premise to allow recurring characters from outside the ship.
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Old December 8 2012, 05:49 PM   #122
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

That's nonsense imo. Harry didn't need external characters visiting him in order to be able to show a personality.
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Old December 9 2012, 07:50 AM   #123
exodus
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
^^
Well, if we have to nit-pick, then all of the characters should have been dumped after season 3 because none of them had any arc to talk about.Why only Kes?
The Doc., B'Elanna & Tom's arc's continued thought out the series.

As for Kes.
Considering it was "popularity" that made Kim stay, maybe it she was the second character at the time on the low end of the popularity scale?
Maybe cause between her and Harry, they had the jobs that were easy to replace? Seven had Engineering skills and the EMH didn't really need a nurse.
She was starting to be treated more as a background character than a main one?

Who knows?
Me personally, I do agree with TPTB when they say they wrote the character into a corner. They gave her job that ended up limiting her participation and screen time. It didn't help that Picardo got the best lines which then allowed him to hog up much more screen time and dialog from her.
The fact that they made her afraid of her powers, instead of finding a better way for to use them limited her again.
I think her going from being over curious to being to wise too soon limited stories of her growing up.

The Kes we saw in "Twisted" IMO should have been how Kes was during the first few seasons. The wiser Kes was saw in s3, should have been s6 Kes, by that time she's learned and seen more. S3 should have been teen Kes, a little more rebellious and bit more of a risk taker.
However keep in mind, this is all in retrospect.
It's easy to fix mistakes looking back on them, much harder to see mistakes as there actually taking place in the moment.
I think in general, it's why it's so easy to criticize Voyager as a fan because we're all looking back on comment on how we'd fix it after the fact. I doubt that had any of us been writers on the show during production, that we would have caught the missteps as they happen.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
In a way Voyager wrote itself into a corner where it couldn't develop any characters.

TNG and DS9 characters got most of their development externally. The farengi with Zek and Moogie, Kira with the prophets and various Bajorans, Data with Lore and Soong, Worf with other Klingons. In Voyager even having the Kazons as recurring characters was a little absurd, there's no way they should have been able to keep up with Voyager's speed over two thousand light years. They brought each character to the logical finishing point of their initial arcs in the second season. They had two choices: Bring in a new character with an inexhaustible arc, or break the premise to allow recurring characters from outside the ship.
Honestly until they introduced Cullah, wasn't it a different Sect. each time?
However, if the Kazon were more of a ruthless threat like the Vidiians, maybe we wouldn't have minded seeing them as much? Besides flying around in huge stolen ships, the Kazon weren't much of a threat. They were just kinda annoying.
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Last edited by exodus; December 9 2012 at 08:18 AM.
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Old December 9 2012, 08:28 AM   #124
Guy Gardener
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

It wasn't real popularity that saved Kim.

People Magazine doesn't follow the sheep, they tell the sheep where to go.

Some asshole intern tried to Eliza Doolittle this nobody into a contender and failed.

But really, it was Garret's manager/Agent that dropped the ball.

Honestly though, if Berman didn't find out about the magazine poll, and let Garret Go, would Team Wang have been able to parley that magazine spread into a multi picture deal with one of the big houses?

And if he thought he could Shelly Long it, the kid should have had a French exit and snuck Jennifer in the back to resume as if no one had ever said anything harsh.
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Old December 9 2012, 08:42 AM   #125
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

That's an idea, that getting saved by People magazine actually ruined his career.
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Old December 9 2012, 08:54 AM   #126
exodus
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

^^What are you two, like some gang?
You two follow each other in nearly every post.
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Old December 9 2012, 09:06 AM   #127
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

And I'm following you now exodus so watch out..

Time zones.
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Old December 9 2012, 09:41 AM   #128
Guy Gardener
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Don't look at me, I gave up caffeine recently, so my time in the sack has doubled, which is disturbing.
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Old December 9 2012, 10:30 AM   #129
lurok
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

exodus wrote: View Post
^^What are you two, like some gang?
You two follow each other in nearly every post.
They're a tag team
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Old December 9 2012, 12:28 PM   #130
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

teacake and Guy are like two halves of the same brain.
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Old December 9 2012, 07:01 PM   #131
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
^^
Well, if we have to nit-pick, then all of the characters should have been dumped after season 3 because none of them had any arc to talk about.Why only Kes?
The Doc., B'Elanna & Tom's arc's continued thought out the series.

As for Kes.
Considering it was "popularity" that made Kim stay, maybe it she was the second character at the time on the low end of the popularity scale?
Maybe cause between her and Harry, they had the jobs that were easy to replace? Seven had Engineering skills and the EMH didn't really need a nurse.
She was starting to be treated more as a background character than a main one?

Who knows?
Me personally, I do agree with TPTB when they say they wrote the character into a corner. They gave her job that ended up limiting her participation and screen time. It didn't help that Picardo got the best lines which then allowed him to hog up much more screen time and dialog from her.
The fact that they made her afraid of her powers, instead of finding a better way for to use them limited her again.
I think her going from being over curious to being to wise too soon limited stories of her growing up.

The Kes we saw in "Twisted" IMO should have been how Kes was during the first few seasons. The wiser Kes was saw in s3, should have been s6 Kes, by that time she's learned and seen more. S3 should have been teen Kes, a little more rebellious and bit more of a risk taker.
However keep in mind, this is all in retrospect.
It's easy to fix mistakes looking back on them, much harder to see mistakes as there actually taking place in the moment.
I think in general, it's why it's so easy to criticize Voyager as a fan because we're all looking back on comment on how we'd fix it after the fact. I doubt that had any of us been writers on the show during production, that we would have caught the missteps as they happen.
I'm not so sure about any arc of Tom and B'Elanna. Sometimes I get the impression that their relationship came up just to show that they still were on the show. B'Elanna became superfluous when Seven took over her role as the one who could fix anything malfunctioning on the ship and Tom was also shoved in the background when Seven arrived. Both Tom and B'Elanna were better and more interesting characters in seasons 1, 2 and 3.

The Doctor did have an arc. But he became much too human with that emitter. He was more realistic as only a hologram. If they wanted an almost human character, they could have made him an android, like Data.

As for Kes, I totally disagree with the decision to dump her and I find the excuses for dumping her very shallow, to say the least. They should have been honest and said: "We wanted to bring in a sexy babe and had to dump one main character. We were going to dump Kim but when that magazine showed him among the 50 most handsome in their silly inside beauty contest, we kicked out Kes instead". That would have been more honest than coming up with those fairy tales about "not being able to come up with good stories for her". OK, I would still have been angry about their decision but at least they would have been honest.

I do agree about your statement that the Kes we saw in "Twisted" should have been Kes in season 3 and the Kes we saw in season 3 should have been Kes in season 6. That would have been a better development for the character. I also agree on your statement that season 3 Kes should have been teen Kes, a little more rebellious and bit more of a risk taker.
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Old December 10 2012, 07:12 AM   #132
exodus
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post

I'm not so sure about any arc of Tom and B'Elanna. Sometimes I get the impression that their relationship came up just to show that they still were on the show. B'Elanna became superfluous when Seven took over her role as the one who could fix anything malfunctioning on the ship and Tom was also shoved in the background when Seven arrived. Both Tom and B'Elanna were better and more interesting characters in seasons 1, 2 and 3.
Superfluous? No way!
"Extreme Risk", "Barge of the Dead", "Lineage", "Juggernaut" & "Muse" are some great character building stories for B'ELenna. I think they did great stories from her, not to mention Roxanne really sold you on the character. Tom was mostly comedic relief but you how the events of "Thirty Days", "Memorial" & "Drive" greatly matured him.

The Doctor did have an arc. But he became much too human with that emitter. He was more realistic as only a hologram.
I also disagree for the simple fact he often believed he was better than us. "Latent Image" and "Virtuoso" way in a was showing us, up to that point he believed he was incapable of making mistakes. One big reason why he bonded so well with Seven. She was the only one he considered intellectually his equal. He didn't want to be human, he wanted to be free and equal. A path Kes put him on.

As for Kes, I totally disagree with the decision to dump her and I find the excuses for dumping her very shallow, to say the least. They should have been honest and said: "We wanted to bring in a sexy babe and had to dump one main character. We were going to dump Kim but when that magazine showed him among the 50 most handsome in their silly inside beauty contest, we kicked out Kes instead". That would have been more honest than coming up with those fairy tales about "not being able to come up with good stories for her". OK, I would still have been angry about their decision but at least they would have been honest.
Yes, I know. We ALL know.
What difference would it make what they said, it wouldn't make you any less disgruntled. Lien herself could've have said: "I quit" and you'd still be upset your favorite character was on the show.
Ghosts need to rest.

I do agree about your statement that the Kes we saw in "Twisted" should have been Kes in season 3 and the Kes we saw in season 3 should have been Kes in season 6. That would have been a better development for the character. I also agree on your statement that season 3 Kes should have been teen Kes, a little more rebellious and bit more of a risk taker.
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Last edited by exodus; December 10 2012 at 07:23 AM.
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Old December 11 2012, 02:39 AM   #133
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?
Significantly better. Kes was annoying.
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Old December 18 2012, 01:28 AM   #134
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

So, I've been watching Voyager through for the first time since it aired, and I'm up to season 5. Here's my thoughts season per season.

1. This is cool, back when Voyager was a little more committed to the 'lost alone in hostile tribe space' aspect.
2. Seska's calculating schemes and the serialized stuff with Vidians is pretty interesting, I don't know why they didn't do more serial stuff later. Started off kinda weak but had a strong finish.
3. ...Meh. Can't wait for Seven, this is boring.
4. Hirogen are boring. Year Of Hell is good but not as good as I remember, I need a new 'Favorite episode'. All they did this year was have Seven complain a lot.
5. Wow. Did they hire an entire new writing staff? This is way better than every other season so far.

I vaguely remember enjoying season 6 for the most part and enjoying season 7 less. So I would say, Voyager was better with Seven, for reasons that have nothing to do with Seven.
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Old December 18 2012, 11:53 AM   #135
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

It was better with 7 because robots are always better than fairies.
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