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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 5 2012, 02:43 AM   #76
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
As for the "kicking their ass in self-defense"-how does that apply to the movie? The Baku didn't win the fight, they had someone else do their fighting for them. If your point is "have the Baku fight it out with the Son'a," then I'm fine with that, but the Son'a still win. It doesn't exactly endear the Baku to the audience that they are "pacifists" who are happy to let others risk their lives and fight on their behalf. And the ending pretty much guarantees that the UFP will be committed to defending the Baku from now on. I'm sure Starfleet officers are thrilled about that prospect.
Defend them from what the Son'a and the Baku want to try to getting along again at the end of the film.

right, because there aren't any other powers out there in the Alpha Quadrant that will have an interest in the particles in the Briar Patch. Once word gets out, the UFP would be defending the Baku against the Romulans, the Ferengi, the Cardassians, ... etc. You think if a "fountain of youth" were discovered on Earth there wouldn't be some competition for it?

That is, if we take the movie's premise seriously, but then it's so poorly thought out I'm not sure we're meant to.
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Old December 5 2012, 04:47 AM   #77
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Re: Insurrection

FKnight wrote: View Post
The Ba'ku planet ... it was not a member of the Federation, had no representation on the Federation council, and were not subject to Federation law.
Planets don't have representation, people do.

The planet, therefore, was not subject to any decisions by the Federation.
The planet as an physical object would be subject to Council decisions, the Baku population themselves are another story. If the rings could have been harvested with no impact upon the planet's environment, likely the Baku could have been simply left where they were. The whole purpose behind moving the Baku was to prevent them from being harmed by the harvesting of the rings.

Add to that, the Ba'ku settled this planet three years before Earth's Terra Nova colony even launched, and three years after Earth discovered warp speed.
But thousands of years after some future Federation members established colonies and discovered warp speed (Vulcans). Terra Nova is a possible parallel to the ring planet, when the small number of Human colonist first landed, did that automatically mean the entire planet belonged to them? Simply because "they were there first." Planets are big places.

They might be able to claim their immediate landing site and a reasonable area around it, but the whole planet?

I don't think a 2 dimensional parcel of land with an area of 350 square miles ...
The Louisiana purchase was 828,000 square miles, New Orleans was included in the purchase.

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Old December 5 2012, 09:51 AM   #78
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Re: Insurrection

los2188 wrote: View Post
bigdaddy wrote: View Post
How would they know if you make a settlement on the other side of the planet?
I'm talking about the Ba'ku actively letting people (not that they could actually stop people from coming) settle on the planet. People requesting from the Ba'ku to be able to live there with their knowledge, but wanting to let the Ba'ku still do their thing and just settling on another side of the planet or something. They should have listened to Spock. Apparently, the needs of the many did not outweigh the needs of the few...or the one.

Ummm... That's my point. But then just don't tell anyone there are other settlements.
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Old December 5 2012, 12:53 PM   #79
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Re: Insurrection

bigdaddy wrote: View Post
How would they know if you make a settlement on the other side of the planet?
But isn't relocating to the ring planet the same as today having to move next to the factory that makes your medicine?

If you need insulin, it gets shipped to you (or your pharmacy), you don't have live where it's made.

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Picard was attracted to the Baku life style, would a modern 24th century community have been as desirable to him, even if on the same planet?


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Old December 5 2012, 05:14 PM   #80
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
bigdaddy wrote: View Post
How would they know if you make a settlement on the other side of the planet?
But isn't relocating to the ring planet the same as today having to move next to the factory that makes your medicine?

If you need insulin, it gets shipped to you (or your pharmacy), you don't have live where it's made.

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Picard was attracted to the Baku life style, would a modern 24th century community have been as desirable to him, even if on the same planet?



I've always thought it made no sense for Picard to admire the Baku lifestyle the way he did. Picard was never shown as some back to nature traditionalist. If anything, that was his brother's philosophy more than his. TV series Picard might have been "to each their own," but wouldn't have been charmed by it the way movie Picard seemed to be.
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Old December 5 2012, 06:09 PM   #81
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
bigdaddy wrote: View Post
How would they know if you make a settlement on the other side of the planet?
But isn't relocating to the ring planet the same as today having to move next to the factory that makes your medicine?

If you need insulin, it gets shipped to you (or your pharmacy), you don't have live where it's made.

******

Picard was attracted to the Baku life style, would a modern 24th century community have been as desirable to him, even if on the same planet?



I've always thought it made no sense for Picard to admire the Baku lifestyle the way he did. Picard was never shown as some back to nature traditionalist. If anything, that was his brother's philosophy more than his. TV series Picard might have been "to each their own," but wouldn't have been charmed by it the way movie Picard seemed to be.
Picard was all over the place late in TNG and in the movies. I started missing the "I spell knife with an 'N'" Picard.
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Old December 5 2012, 07:18 PM   #82
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Re: Insurrection

Picard did make a comment like, "remember when we were still explorers?"

Exactly where Insurrection fits into the overall Star Trek time line isn't clear, however the Federation either just was, or was currently, fighting a brutial war with the Dominion. Yes we did see her performing a diplomatic mission, and there was talk of a science mission, but it's unlikely that the Enterprise saw no action, and experienced no deaths.

Picard certainly would have read the lists of dead and wounded.

So his dreamy eyed view of the Baku quaint village could have come from there. He was tried of war. Even to the point (in a deleted scene) were he said he wouldn't permit anyone to build any settlement elsewhere on the planet. No one, no "outlanders," would be allowed to come to the ring planet and receive the benefits of the rings, only the Baku could do so in Picard's eyes.

And of coure himself while on leave.

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Old December 5 2012, 07:55 PM   #83
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Picard did make a comment like, "remember when we were still explorers?"

Exactly where Insurrection fits into the overall Star Trek time line isn't clear, however the Federation either just was, or was currently, fighting a brutial war with the Dominion. Yes we did see her performing a diplomatic mission, and there was talk of a science mission, but it's unlikely that the Enterprise saw no action, and experienced no deaths.

Picard certainly would have read the lists of dead and wounded.

So his dreamy eyed view of the Baku quaint village could have come from there. He was tried of war. Even to the point (in a deleted scene) were he said he wouldn't permit anyone to build any settlement elsewhere on the planet. No one, no "outlanders," would be allowed to come to the ring planet and receive the benefits of the rings, only the Baku could do so in Picard's eyes.

And of coure himself while on leave.


wow, so the deleted scenes make Picard out to be even more of an ass than he already was in the released movie.
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Old December 5 2012, 08:12 PM   #84
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
Once word gets out, the UFP would be defending the Baku against the Romulans,
Assuming the Romulans would want to risk violating the Neutral Zone and starting a war anyway. Depending on where that is in relation to the Baku planet

the Ferengi,
The Ferengi are going to bring military force on someone? Really? The most they would do would be to try to buy the Baku off.

the Cardassians
Are either at war with the federation or rebuilding their smoking ruin of a homeworld with millions dead depending on the timeline, I doubt they would spare the resources of either seeing as in once case the Starfleet will already shoot them on sight and the other they need federation support just to keep their empire from collapsing.

Of course all this rests on whether or not ALIEN civilizations would care about a fountain of youth

,.... etc. You think if a "fountain of youth" were discovered on Earth there wouldn't be some competition for it?
Yes but on Earth we would have a better idea where the various borders would be in relation to said fountain as well as a more accurate assessment of the political landscape of the area seeing as how their Neutral zones that violation of are an act of war and interstellar wars and the rebuilding in the aftermath of such at that point in the Star Trek universe.
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Old December 6 2012, 08:22 PM   #85
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Re: Insurrection

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Once word gets out, the UFP would be defending the Baku against the Romulans,
Assuming the Romulans would want to risk violating the Neutral Zone and starting a war anyway. Depending on where that is in relation to the Baku planet
At different times in the (Star Trek) past, the Brier Patch has been both Romulan and Klingon territories. Both might not have originally tried particularly hard to retain it, believing the region to be worthless. But things are different now, a pearl of great value is found there.

Risk war? Of course they would.

From the (deleted) scene, the information on the rings was already out. Quark likely knew of the medical properties of the rings prior to Data being damaged.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
The Ferengi are going to bring military force on someone? Really? The most they would do would be to try to buy the Baku off.
Or steal it in the dead of night, without any attempt to protect the Baku like the Sona and the Federation were doing.

Not all Ferengi are as nice as Quark, and some have been shown to employ force to get what they want.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Of course all this rests on whether or not ALIEN civilizations would care about a fountain of youth
The motivations of various alien species are largely the same as Humans. The exceptions are exceptions.


You think if a "fountain of youth" were discovered on Earth there wouldn't be some competition for it?
Yes but on Earth we would have a better idea where the various borders would be in relation to said fountain ...
Okay, let's say that the "Fountain" is located right in the middle of the Kashmir region, an area simultaneously claimed by China, India and Pakistan. All three possessing nuclear weapons.

Or maybe it's in Israel, or on Taiwan. Or one of the African nations whose only current defense is that they don't have anything the anyone wants.

Might be time for a well financed regime change.

seeing as how their Neutral zones that violation of are an act of war and interstellar wars and the rebuilding in the aftermath of such at that point in the Star Trek universe.
In a universe where people will kill you for your shoes, what effect do you think a fountain of youth (one that is collectable, portable and capable of being sub-divided) will have on people after the knowledge of it becomes generally known?


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Old December 6 2012, 11:04 PM   #86
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Re: Insurrection

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
In a universe where people will kill you for your shoes, what effect do you think a fountain of youth (one that is collectable, portable and capable of being sub-divided) will have on people after the knowledge of it becomes generally known?


This has been my position for years. Once the secret about the planet gets out, the Ba'ku become a major pain in the ass for the Federation/Starfleet. And whomever comes calling for those particles the next time may not care whether the Ba'ku live or die in the process of extraction.

They go back to being mortal, but their culture will go on. It won't get eradicated.
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Old December 7 2012, 02:19 AM   #87
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

BillJ wrote: View Post
Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
In a universe where people will kill you for your shoes, what effect do you think a fountain of youth (one that is collectable, portable and capable of being sub-divided) will have on people after the knowledge of it becomes generally known?


This has been my position for years. Once the secret about the planet gets out, the Ba'ku become a major pain in the ass for the Federation/Starfleet. And whomever comes calling for those particles the next time may not care whether the Ba'ku live or die in the process of extraction.

They go back to being mortal, but their culture will go on. It won't get eradicated.

actually, with only 600 to make up their "culture," without the fountain of youth they're screwed.

Again, the movie makes no sense from a larger perspective. The whole thing is a classic example of fridge logic. WHY is Starfleet going to defend a group of 600 that aren't part of the Federation and aren't contributing anything? Realistically, they wouldn't. The only reason Picard could use to justify doing so was that Dougherty was already involving the Federation.

So, as BillJ usually brings up in these threads on INS, you're left with two options:


1. The Federation agrees to round-the-clock defense of the Baku(a neutral party that is hoarding a resource that would greatly help the Federation) for no real reason. If you pick this option, explain why they'd do this for the Baku and not other peaceful, vulnerable neutral groups.

2. After the events in the film, the Federation leaves the Baku alone. Explain why every major power in the quadrant doesn't come and either remove or attack the Baku with force.(agrarian pacifists in possession of a coveted resource don't do well historically)


That's why this film fails, in addition to the bad humor and not being very interesting, it's just badly written, with logic holes and plot holes all over the place.
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Old December 7 2012, 07:52 PM   #88
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
2. After the events in the film, the Federation leaves the Baku alone. Explain why every major power in the quadrant doesn't come and either remove or attack the Baku with force.(agrarian pacifists in possession of a coveted resource don't do well historically)
They never get to know about it.
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Old December 7 2012, 09:08 PM   #89
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
2. After the events in the film, the Federation leaves the Baku alone. Explain why every major power in the quadrant doesn't come and either remove or attack the Baku with force.(agrarian pacifists in possession of a coveted resource don't do well historically)
They never get to know about it.

er, so the Federation Council, the Son'a, all those Starfleet observers we saw at the beginning, the Enterprise crew, etc. all agree to participate in a massive cover-up, huh?

How noble. Not very realistic, either-conspiracies of silence don't tend to last for long, especially in an age of mass, instant communications.
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Old December 7 2012, 09:18 PM   #90
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
2. After the events in the film, the Federation leaves the Baku alone. Explain why every major power in the quadrant doesn't come and either remove or attack the Baku with force.(agrarian pacifists in possession of a coveted resource don't do well historically)
They never get to know about it.

er, so the Federation Council, the Son'a, all those Starfleet observers we saw at the beginning, the Enterprise crew, etc. all agree to participate in a massive cover-up, huh?
Yeah, I mean its not like the federation didn't bother to tell anyone about genesis before Khan set it off right....

Oh, wait.
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