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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old December 7 2012, 10:08 AM   #31
Timo
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

I would like to express the worry that we're giving a lot of weight to a number of crystals that is in fact established merely as a minimum number in one episode, and basically contradicted in another. The fourth is the final in "Mudd's Women", yet loss of four in "Alternative Factor" leads to fewer problems than the ones experienced when the ship retained one half-working crystal plus battery power. And in "Elaan of Troyius", a single crystal saves the day by restoring full warp fighting trim to the ship.

I'd thus urge us to favor the interpretations where there can be as many as a dozen crystals aboard whenever Starfleet can afford them, but one is all that is truly needed. "Mudd's Women" would play out much the same if Kirk had sixteen crystals available but expended fifteen of them in the chase... Possibly full power calls for one healthy crystal in a key piece of machinery (a TNG style annihilation focus?), plus immediately available spares or the engineer won't risk the 100% setting. But whenever the ship has more crystals available, these need not sit idle, but can go to secondary applications where they do a lot of good (in addition to serving as main power backups if the engineer has the time and means to reroute power through alternate or bypass circuits).

By having the operational crystals always subjected to antimatter bombardment, TNG style, one would create a situation where a heavily shielded dumbwaiter system is required for all the applications. This system could then have multiple access points in multiple, nearly identical rooms, but with very specific single points of vulnerability wherever the crystals actually get utilized.

How much trouble would it be to pack four (or even six) of the later-season engineering rooms in the top levels of the secondary hull (always with two side by side and mirrored), assuming the forced-perspective set extension was taken to be no longer than it physically was on set, or possibly interpreted as somewhat shorter, even? The more, the merrier - and there could be several of the earlier, one-level-high rooms on the decks below.

On the other hand, these supposedly are just control rooms. I agree that scattering just a few, asymmetrically at that, between massive pieces of machinery would make sense. And it might force the engineers to install snaking rather than straight lengthwise corridors in the secondary hull, to get past the machinery.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old December 7 2012, 03:13 PM   #32
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Timo wrote: View Post
I would like to express the worry that we're giving a lot of weight to a number of crystals that is in fact established merely as a minimum number in one episode, and basically contradicted in another. The fourth is the final in "Mudd's Women", yet loss of four in "Alternative Factor" leads to fewer problems than the ones experienced when the ship retained one half-working crystal plus battery power.
However, in "The Alternative Factor", we know that the converter assembly was not damaged and that meant working bypass circuits. Even though the ship lost all four of her crystals, the bypass would still work and no immediate problems would be felt since the ship was NOT under stress like it was in "Mudd's Women".

Timo wrote: View Post
And in "Elaan of Troyius", a single crystal saves the day by restoring full warp fighting trim to the ship.
Yes, although it was clear in "Mudd's Women" that a single crystal circuit could power the entire ship in an emergency which makes it consistent with previous examples. Kirk might still have chosen to not heavily stress those crystals in "Elaan" by using the less power hungy torpedoes over the phasers.
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Old December 7 2012, 04:04 PM   #33
Timo
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Would a bypass circuit work without a crystal in it - or would every circuit of the type spoken of here, be it primary or bypass, rather be a "lithium circuit"?

- When Spock suggests rigging a bypass circuit, he may be assuming Scotty has further crystals for the purpose, until Scotty says "we blew the whole converter assembly", meaning "we blew our whole supply of crystals, regular and spare alike".

- When Kirk soon thereafter suggests the same remedy, Scotty speaks of all the bypass circuits being burned out; he could be speaking of the very circuits that were commented on as having burned out when the rescue of Mudd and his women was underway. That is, all but one of the lithium circuits would be "bypass circuits" for the single active one. And there would be no set number for the non-active circuits; on a good day, Kirk might afford a dozen, but when confronting Mudd, he was down to three, of which one incorporated a substandard, cracked crystal.

Supposedly, something prevents Scotty from repairing or constructing a bypass circuit after the mass burn-out. The episode establishes that lithium crystals are a scarce resource, but not that anything else would be. The episode establishes that lithium circuits burned out, crippling the ship. The ship stays crippled. The simple explanation here would be that bypass circuits require lithium crystals!

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Old December 7 2012, 04:44 PM   #34
Albertese
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

I still wonder if the important difference here is that the crystals seen in "Mudd's Women" are the TNG style ones and the others are the paddle style ones. I still think that the main reactors (of which there are four) use the TNG-style crystals and all the rest use as many dozens of the paddles as you want to make use of to fulfill all the roles seen in all the post-"Mudd's Women" episodes.

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Last edited by Albertese; December 8 2012 at 08:02 AM.
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Old December 7 2012, 07:17 PM   #35
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

I'm beginning to realize that the thread title could have just as well been "3 dilithum crystals to power the TOS Enterprise?" () but please continue, by all means.

There is just another Season Three engine room oddity I wanted to mention:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x...romehd0308.jpg

Shouldn't that wall with the yellow cabinet (holding the "trident engineering device" in "The Ultimate Computer", seen in "Elaan of Troyius" when Kirk tells Spock to get ready for a Vulcan Mind Meld just before Kryton commits suicide) be facing the cathedral?

Bob
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Old December 8 2012, 03:40 AM   #36
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Timo wrote: View Post
Would a bypass circuit work without a crystal in it - or would every circuit of the type spoken of here, be it primary or bypass, rather be a "lithium circuit"?

- When Spock suggests rigging a bypass circuit, he may be assuming Scotty has further crystals for the purpose,
The only problem with that is Scott is specific in that he has only one crystal left which means there are no spares. Spock's suggestion for a bypass circuit then must be for one that does not need any crystals.
SCOTT: One lithium crystal left, and that with a hairline split at the base.
SPOCK: Better rig a bypass circuit.
SCOTT: Can't. We blew the whole converter assembly.
Timo wrote: View Post
Supposedly, something prevents Scotty from repairing or constructing a bypass circuit after the mass burn-out.
I would imagine that the bypass circuit for the converter assembly is a starbase-level repair job because of the massive amounts of power that the converter assembly must handle.

However, at the end of "Mudd's Women", Kirk picks up 6 crystals. That leaves us with these viable options:

1. We see 3 circuits go out on screen and there were two more that went out off screen during the rescue operation. There are 6 Active crystal circuits in addition to bypass circuits that do not need crystals.

2. The Enterprise already lost 2 crystals prior to "Mudd's Women" due to wear and tear or other circumstances. We see them lose the next 3 during the rescue attempt on screen. There are 6 Active crystal circuits in addition to bypass circuits that do not need crystals.

3. Kirk picked up 4 crystals and 2 additional as spares. There are 4 Active crystal circuits in addition to bypass circuits that do not need crystals.

As to "The Alternative Factor", "The Paradise Syndrome" and "Elaan of Troyius", there is nothing explicit on how many crystals the ship needs to run at full power. It might be four as seen in "The Alternative Factor" or six like possibly in "Mudd's Women".
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Old December 8 2012, 10:01 PM   #37
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"However, at the end of "Mudd's Women", Kirk picks up 6 crystals. That leaves us with these viable options:

1. We see 3 circuits go out on screen and there were two more that went out off screen during the rescue operation. There are 6 Active crystal circuits in addition to bypass circuits that do not need crystals.

2. The Enterprise already lost 2 crystals prior to "Mudd's Women" due to wear and tear or other circumstances. We see them lose the next 3 during the rescue attempt on screen. There are 6 Active crystal circuits in addition to bypass circuits that do not need crystals.

3. Kirk picked up 4 crystals and 2 additional as spares. There are 4 Active crystal circuits in addition to bypass circuits that do not need crystals.

As to "The Alternative Factor", "The Paradise Syndrome" and "Elaan of Troyius", there is nothing explicit on how many crystals the ship needs to run at full power. It might be four as seen in "The Alternative Factor" or six like possibly in "Mudd's Women"."
I had also thought theory # 1 might be an option, but Scotty makes it clear that the 3 the audience saw burn out were the 3 that did burn out:

SPOCK: What's wrong?
SCOTT: I don't know, sir. With those three lithium crystals gone
SPOCK: It'll take longer on battery power.
MCCOY: Never trusted this.

Theory # 3 makes sense to me. We've seen how quickly the Enterprise lost 3 crystals just by extending the shields for an apparently short amount of time and I wonder what happened to their crystals in Where No Man Has Gone Before.

It's almost a lucky coincidence they are close to Rigel 12 (less than two days away) so better get some spares while you are being presented with such a rare opportunity.

There is an interesting piece of dialogue where Kirk possibly and totally misunderstood Spock's question:

KIRK: Stand by, Mister Spock. We're coming aboard with the lithium crystals.
SPOCK [OC]: How many coming, Captain?
CHILDRESS: Eve will stay, today at least. We, er, we want to talk.
KIRK: Eve?
EVE: You've got someone up there called the Enterprise.
KIRK: Two of us, Mister Spock. Come on, Mister Mudd.

I imagine Mr. Spock raising both of his eyebrows because to me that doesn't seem to be the answer he was looking for...

Bob
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Old December 9 2012, 02:05 AM   #38
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

In post # 35 I mentioned an "oddity" which doesn't have to be one if this wall has two yellow cabinets on two sides, which I think is what we're looking at.

However, I discovered another one from "The Ultimate Computer".

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...uterhd0162.jpg

Behind Kirk we'd expect to see a part of the "cathedral" and the wall (or one of these large GNDN props), but instead we see this:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...uterhd0169.jpg

Obviously a strange choice of the DP to create some background which isn't there and rather similar to the strange engine room shooting angles in "Day of the Dove".

I don't know if this might be helpful but here's a link to a website of a gentleman who tried to accurately reproduce the bridge monitors: http://tap364.webs.com/engineeringstation.htm

Could this monitor screen be a diagram of the warp engines and reactors?

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...uterhd0856.jpg

Would be interesting to see if it were possible to give those screens a practical meaning.

Bob
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Old December 9 2012, 05:48 AM   #39
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Could this monitor screen be a diagram of the warp engines and reactors?

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...uterhd0856.jpg

Would be interesting to see if it were possible to give those screens a practical meaning.
That screen is when Chekov is asked to look at helm and navigation control so it is unlikely warp engines and reactors.
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Old December 9 2012, 09:22 AM   #40
Albertese
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Could this monitor screen be a diagram of the warp engines and reactors?

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...uterhd0856.jpg

Would be interesting to see if it were possible to give those screens a practical meaning.
That screen is when Chekov is asked to look at helm and navigation control so it is unlikely warp engines and reactors.
True... but it seems to me that I read someplace that that particular screen was designed by Jefferies based on the fuel schematic to the plane he flew in the war (or maybe the hydraulics of the plane?)

It's symmetry suggests to me that it may have to do with the engines (there being two of these... and they're symmetrical). Perhaps this is a monitor of the engines and reactors, but also includes information which is related to the ship's navigation capability?

I dunno, but it is at the Engineering Station and seems symmetrical..... I like engine diagrams...

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Old December 9 2012, 02:23 PM   #41
Mytran
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
However, I discovered another one from "The Ultimate Computer".
It's not the first time that closeups and establishing shots differ - this sort of impromptu "angle change" crops up all over the place. Just two that spring to mind are McCoy & Kirk's initial conversation in Amok Time (McCoy's closeups do not match) and in Is There In Truth No Beauty where Spock and Miranda are carrying the Medusan to his cabin for the first time. The camerawork is lovely, but the marrying of the footage between Spock's closeups, Miranda's closeups and the medium shot of them both is way off.

This is just one of those things I intend to "squint" at, because otherwise it is a continuity nightmare!!!
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Old December 9 2012, 05:29 PM   #42
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

@Bob and Mytran - When looking at the closeups for "The Ultimate Computer", the angle is right, only with a slight twist to his left in his torso and his head turns to his left. So the background is consistent between both the wide and closeup with the only change in Kirk's facing to accommodate the camera not moving around. It's an odd choice for the director though
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Old December 10 2012, 11:06 AM   #43
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Agreed - it's not out of the bounds for the characters to move a bit between shots for dramatic effect, but it requires us to believe that the characters have dramatic motivations...

Sometimes the set pieces have those, too. The big generator things no doubt are on antigrav pedestals - but perhaps some of the wall elements swing on hinges, too, so that the control panels on them can always be viewed simultaneously with the piece of machinery they are keyed to control?

It's symmetry suggests to me that it may have to do with the engines (there being two of these... and they're symmetrical). Perhaps this is a monitor of the engines and reactors, but also includes information which is related to the ship's navigation capability?
We could always say that in navigational situations where the helm doesn't respond properly, steering by asymmetric thrust is a factor to be considered, just like in today's naval propulsion. Chekov's seeming interest in engines could thus directly tie to the navigation task at hand, i.e. getting the damned ship to as much as agree to turn around.

I still don't think any of the episodes establish any sort of an upper limit or plausible number for the crystals the ship needs for X, be it X=warp propulsion, X=full power, or X=maintaining orbit. Crystals are consumables, and rare enough that makeshift replacements, bypassing and underway maintenance are part of the routine. "Mudd's Women" doesn't indicate gradual loss of power from gradual loss of crystals, thus being in line with "Elaan of Troyius" in that a single crystal gives full combat and warp power. "Alternative Factor" explicitly disagrees, but that's with the paddle things. And TNG is based on the use of a single crystal focus through and through. We can draw all sorts of conclusions, but "X crystals are required for achieving Y" would seem excessively assertive for all values of X.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old December 10 2012, 01:48 PM   #44
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Could this monitor screen be a diagram of the warp engines and reactors?

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...uterhd0856.jpg

Would be interesting to see if it were possible to give those screens a practical meaning.
That screen is when Chekov is asked to look at helm and navigation control so it is unlikely warp engines and reactors.
Not necessarily as they are trying to cut off power from the corresponding automatic circuit relay and switch to manual.

SPOCK: There is one possibility. The automatic helm navigation circuit relays might be disrupted from engineering level three.
...
SPOCK [OC]: Examine the H two seven nine elements, also the G nine five systems.
CHEKOV: Sir, G nine five system appears dead. All indicators are dark.
SPOCK: Thank you, Ensign. SPOCK: It appears, Captain, we've been doing what used to be called pursuing a wild goose. M-5 has rerouted helm and navigational controls, bypassing this primary (i.e. power) system.

Bob
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Old December 10 2012, 02:02 PM   #45
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Mytran wrote: View Post
"This is just one of those things I intend to "squint" at, because otherwise it is a continuity nightmare!!!"
You mean like this



(alien entity where Emergency Manual Monitor should be)



versus



(alien entity opposite 'cathedral') versus



(alien entity next to cathedral, balcony would be near the cathedral similar to the suggestion of the shot from "The Ultimate Computer").

However, if there was one additional engine room where the cathedral is (facing forward) providing the power supply for the main sensor / deflector you could take the strange shooting angle from "The Ultimate Computer" plus the one (of the three contradicting angles) from "Day of the Dove" to match the departure of the alien entity through the engineering hull in the original TOS shot.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; December 10 2012 at 02:19 PM.
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