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Old December 7 2012, 12:44 AM   #91
Longinus
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Like I keep saying: Starfleet Security is only for providing security officers on board starships.
Why you keep saying this? Why is this the only thing they can do? If a Starfleet pilot can fly anything from a huge starship to a shuttle and even to a 20th century helicopter, I'd assume the security personnel to be pretty diversely trained too.

Those are clearly not qualified to be marines as we understand the term.
Again, why? What exact things you expect the marines could do that the SF security can't?

I mean, look at the redshirts you've seen in TOS. Would you want people like that, who seem to get killed at an alarming rate, to be fighting on the front lines?
I assume that dying in alarming rates is exactly what the soldiers in front lines do, so they would be eminently qualified.
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Old December 7 2012, 12:53 AM   #92
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Longinus wrote: View Post
Why you keep saying this? Why is this the only thing they can do? If a Starfleet pilot can fly anything from a huge starship to a shuttle and even to a 20th century helicopter, I'd assume the security personnel to be pretty diversely trained too.
Not everyone is like Sulu.

As for the redshirts: They were incompetent because they always went off wandering on their own and were thus the first people to get killed by the alien rock monster thingy or whatever. Real soldiers wouldn't die that easily.
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Old December 7 2012, 12:58 AM   #93
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

As for the redshirts: They were incompetent because they always went off wandering on their own and were thus the first people to get killed by the alien rock monster thingy or whatever. Real soldiers wouldn't die that easily.
That's silly. That's just TV story convention and tells us nothing about the competene of the security as a whole. In Star Wars the Stormtroopers were supposedly the Empire's elite soldiers and they died like flies and could hit the side of a barn. In TV and movies extras die and that has nothing to do with their competence or training.
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Old December 7 2012, 03:50 AM   #94
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Like I keep saying: Starfleet Security is only for providing security officers on board starships. Those are clearly not qualified to be marines as we understand the term.
Why deploy a group of security from a starship, if the starship itself isn't needed for the problem.

The Marines (or Army) could be deployed to member world where there are overwhelming medical problems like a epidemic, or a quarantine. Where there there has been a natural disaster, tidal wave, hurricane, earthquake, etc. The Marines comes in and do the long term work, months or years.

Think of all the problems that might require the introduction of a organized external force, but doesn't need to tie down multiple exploration starships in orbit for a protracted period of time.

Kirk's ship carried what? Thirty plus security? After the earthquake in Haiti, over ten thousand American troops were sent to the island to help.

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Old December 7 2012, 05:16 AM   #95
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

I think its obvious that Starfleet's Security Division serves on all Starfleet facilities, not just on Starships. Their duties probably extend beyond being muscle, MPs and guards as well. In the TNG episode the Pegasus, Starfleet Security was developing a cloaking device and in the Drumhead the head of the Security Division was the person who effectively shut down Admiral Satie. So it would appear that Security has jurisdiction over intelligence, espionage and matters of National Security. IRL, when my father was in the USAAF he was in the Security Service (now called Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Agency) and he was not an MP. So it's possible that Starfleet Security might have ground forces under it's purview as well.
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Old December 7 2012, 05:50 AM   #96
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

That's the thing I don't like about most TV / movies. All the police forces / enemy forces / allied forces are portrayed as incompetant boobs who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.

Reality is that most forces are reasonable to well trained and would put somebody down.

At least in "24" they portrayed their forces to be pretty decent in a combat situation.

Even in "Enterprise" the MACO's didn't drop like flies. The sheer number of MACO's that died are very few, even the extras got some real fight time that made them look competant.

My main issue is with Hollywood and making badguys / goodguys look like fools to make the other side look good. Everybody should be following the "24" mentality where both sides are competant and show them to use brains when approaching a situation.

I know it's a little bit difficult to ask, but make both sides intelligent for once. -_-
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Old December 7 2012, 06:19 AM   #97
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Once again, these mythical Starfleet Marines are Starfleet Security. Just like we have someone wearing a blue sciences uniform specialize in biology, I think we can have gold security specialize in ground combat.

But they are not called Starfleet Marines. They are a part of the already existing Starfleet Security division. Starfleet is the Federations defense agency, and if Starfleet personnel are defending a colony against a Klingon attack or holding a communications array from the Dominion, then they are a part of Starfleets combat division, known as Starfleet Security (providing Security, one dead Jem'Hadar at a time).

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Old December 7 2012, 08:32 AM   #98
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

In the TNG episode the Pegasus, Starfleet Security was developing a cloaking device
To nitpick, "The Pegasus" spoke of two separate branches, SF Security and SF Intelligence; it was the first episode to explicitly refer to this latter, supposedly more clandestine and underhanded sub-organization, a plot element the writer Ron D. Moore had long itched to introduce. It was SF Intel that was responsible for the development of the cloak against the UFP's interstellar legal commitments, while SF Security was only mentioned in passing, with SF Intel representative Admiral Pressman claiming that the Security branch boss was okay with what was going on. Considering what transpired, the claim was probably untrue or at least partially misleading.

SF Security does investigate. But rather than being "spooks", they are more like "cops" when doing this. Indeed, it appears that SF Security is the de facto only law enforcement force in the entire Federation, rather than just within Starfleet...

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Old December 7 2012, 08:42 AM   #99
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

But they are not called Starfleet Marines. They are a part of the already existing Starfleet Security division.
Whatever you want to call them, at least in TFF they were not part of the Security division.
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Old December 7 2012, 09:04 AM   #100
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Timo wrote: View Post
Indeed, it appears that SF Security is the de facto only law enforcement force in the entire Federation, rather than just within Starfleet...
But didn't the guy in "Search for Spock", who apprehended McCoy in a bar for trying to get passage to Genesis, identify himself as Federation Security?
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Old December 7 2012, 09:16 AM   #101
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

There was this single agent from "Federation Security", yes - delivering McCoy straight to a Starfleet gaol!

If anything, I'd count that as a further strike against the existence of a civilian police force in the Federation. They have this Secret Service or whatnot, yes, but it appears to have nothing to do with everyday policing.

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Old December 7 2012, 12:55 PM   #102
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Timo wrote: View Post
There was this single agent from "Federation Security", yes - delivering McCoy straight to a Starfleet gaol!
I figure this guy usually works the lobby downtown at the Federation Building, checking ID's. Starfleet security was short handed and asked him to walk across the street to the bar and bring McCoy back.

Basically, he's a mall cop.


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Old December 7 2012, 02:15 PM   #103
The Wormhole
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
That's the thing I don't like about most TV / movies. All the police forces / enemy forces / allied forces are portrayed as incompetant boobs who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.

Reality is that most forces are reasonable to well trained and would put somebody down.

At least in "24" they portrayed their forces to be pretty decent in a combat situation.

Even in "Enterprise" the MACO's didn't drop like flies. The sheer number of MACO's that died are very few, even the extras got some real fight time that made them look competant.

My main issue is with Hollywood and making badguys / goodguys look like fools to make the other side look good. Everybody should be following the "24" mentality where both sides are competant and show them to use brains when approaching a situation.

I know it's a little bit difficult to ask, but make both sides intelligent for once. -_-
Thing is, a lot of the timeit simply slows the plot down too much if everyone on the show is intelligent. So for the sake of the plot, all bad guys, or at the very least anyone who isn't a main character has to be overwhelmingly incompetant. The audience wants entertainment, not realism. Realism is boring.

The main reason the MACOs were shows to be competant was because that was their purpose, they were meant to be the ultimate unbeatable ass kicking squad.

timmy84 wrote: View Post
But they are not called Starfleet Marines. They are a part of the already existing Starfleet Security division. Starfleet is the Federations defense agency, and if Starfleet personnel are defending a colony against a Klingon attack or holding a communications array from the Dominion, then they are a part of Starfleets combat division, known as Starfleet Security (providing Security, one dead Jem'Hadar at a time).
Well, those guys had coloured stripes on their uniforms indicating they were't all security. There were command and science officers mixed in as well. Logically, since these were combat situations everyone was required to get into combat gear fight the enemy, regardless of their specialities. Just like in the actual military.
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Old December 7 2012, 05:33 PM   #104
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Timo wrote: View Post
There was this single agent from "Federation Security", yes - delivering McCoy straight to a Starfleet gaol!
If a United States Navy Commander were delivered to Quantico Marine Corps Brig, does that preclude him from having been arrested by the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

The detention agency doesn't imply anything about the arresting agency.

If anything, I'd count that as a further strike against the existence of a civilian police force in the Federation.
Actually seeing a civilian police agency engaging in policing actions is a strike against their existence?

Strange world you live in.

Longinus wrote: View Post
UFP is not an unified nation state but an alliance of different worlds.
That may have been the original intent, but that changed over time. And even at the start, the Federation was never quite just an alliance -- alliances don't get their own dedicated military like Starfleet. There's no such thing as the United Nations Army, after all.

Oh, and NATO and UN forces kinda operate the way I suggested, and they seem to work just fine.
NATO is just a puppet of the United States, and the United Nations is the puppet of the P-5. Neither one is capable of the kinds of sovereign political actions we have seen the Federation engage in.

Also:

The word you are looking for is "sovereign state," not "nation-state."

A nation-state is a sovereign state explicitly designed to encompass the territory and citizenry of a nation -- and no, "nation" is not a synonym for "country" or "sovereign state." A nation is actually a large group of people sharing a common culture, language, and imagined history.

Thus, a nation-state is when a sovereign state is designed for a nation -- the French Republic for the French nation; the Kingdom of Norway for the Norwegian nation; etc. Some nations have no states -- the Kurdish nation is quite real but there is no Republic of Kurdistan. And some states encompass multiple nations -- the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland compasses the English, Scottish, Welsh, and (part of) Irish nations. Etc.

The Federation is clearly a multinational sovereign state.
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Old December 7 2012, 06:52 PM   #105
Longinus
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Sci, you are of course correct on the terminilogy. I also read the post you linked. Nice analysis of the situation, though I do not necessarily agree with all of your conclusions. However, it is clear that the Federation has become more unified and the central authority getting more power over the years (both real years and fiction years). This makes perfect sense to me.

Star Trek has always been focused on Starfleet, a federal institution, and we get much less information how things work outside of it. I'd assume there to be all sorts of political struggles going on between the member worlds that we never hear about. Even though UFP is has clearly more powerful federal institutions than EU, I still feel that EU is a better analogy for it than US. All these different worlds with different histories and applying for the membership reminds me of EU.

Also, it is true that the Federation Council seems to have a lot of power, but we know very little of how it is elected and how it operates. If for example it has appointed representatives from each member world and decisions that would introduce binding new laws on the member worlds would require unanimous vote, then in practice the Federation could not impose laws on its members against their will.

Last edited by Longinus; December 7 2012 at 07:05 PM.
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