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Old December 6 2012, 01:00 PM   #76
Longinus
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
I bet there are some former military guys who would help them even for free. I hope they will use some better military tactics in all future Trek. This is not the 60s.
Yes, using military consultants would certainly help. Calling those same actors 'marines' instead of 'security' won't.
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Old December 6 2012, 03:43 PM   #77
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Darkwing wrote: View Post
I'd argue that an army would prove necessary just so different worlds didn't have better or worse local defenders
Looking at the experience of Betazed, when it was invaded by the JemHadar in the Dominion War, that apparently was the case there. The The Betazed local military were able to hold the JemHadar off for some period of time (which speak well for them), but eventually the planet was taken. Sisko describe their defenses as poor, and not typical.

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
... a lot of Trek renders a lot of Starship Troopers null and void. The ability to precisely beam people in, the crazy targeting and sensors Trek has ...
But often we've seen planetary conditions that interfer with sensors, and occasionally render transporters useless. Boots on the ground would be a option.


Darkwing wrote: View Post
... but I'd think that in the early days, the UFP would exert a lot of pressure to consolidate forces into the federal level ... They're Starfleet vessels, but operated under the aegis of a founding race FOR the UFP.
Or it could have been a situation like with the UN Charter, the Charter does allow for the creation of a UN run miitary force. But the UN membership (quite wisely) has alway refused to permit the UN to form one. This is why you see UN peacekeepers, and nations operating under UN declarations.

The ships are "owned" by the individual Federation Members, and operated as a co-operative joint command fleet (Starfleet).

Longinus wrote: View Post
I cannot understand where this hardon for marines comes from.
Got to love a man in uniform.

Longinus wrote: View Post
And it is quite possible that being idealistically pacifistic, the Federation ...
The Federation regularly employs violence, by way of Starfleet. They're hardly "pacifists," certainly not as a group.

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
once you've won control of the orbital space, you've won everything
The phaser that can fire from orbit to the ground, is the same phaser that can fire from the ground to orbit.


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Old December 6 2012, 04:05 PM   #78
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
Longinus wrote: View Post
Seeming occassional incompetence of the Starfleet security people is just a TV thing. Writers and actors are not experts of military tactics. It is not like the supposed super warriors like Klingons and Jem'Hadar appear much more competent.
I bet there are some former military guys who would help them even for free. I hope they will use some better military tactics in all future Trek. This is not the 60s.
Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
And fighting ability/martial art too. I'll give TOS a pass, but there's no excuse for TNG (and later series) not hiring a professional trainer to work with the actors for fight scenes on some of the episodes, especially Worf.


Why give TOS a "pass"? Its not like there was a shortage of people with military experience in the 60s. A large percentage of men of a certain age had been in the military, some serving in combat. Roddenberry was a USAAF pilot and Coon was a Marine. Others already on staff had served as well. I've a feeling any "failings" were driven by time, budget and storytelling rather than ignorance or incompetence.
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Old December 6 2012, 04:05 PM   #79
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
The ships are "owned" by the individual Federation Members, and operated as a co-operative joint command fleet (Starfleet).
I actually like to think that this is exactly how it was in TOS. Would explain Kirk's reference to United Earth Space Probe Agency too. However, I'd like to think that during TNG this was no longer the case, and Starfleet was truly a federal fleet.

The Federation regularly employs violence, by way of Starfleet. They're hardly "pacifists," certainly not as a group.
'Pacifistic' may be a too strong word, but they tend to portray themselves as being an a mission of peace. Defiant was exceptional that it was a pure warship. Multipurpose security forces seem to fit the ethos better than marines that are purely for combat.
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Old December 6 2012, 08:24 PM   #80
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Or it could have been a situation like with the UN Charter, the Charter does allow for the creation of a UN run miitary force. But the UN membership (quite wisely) has alway refused to permit the UN to form one. This is why you see UN peacekeepers, and nations operating under UN declarations.

The ships are "owned" by the individual Federation Members, and operated as a co-operative joint command fleet (Starfleet).
The problem with this interpretation is that it directly contradicts Star Trek IV, in which the docked U.S.S. Enterprise slated for decommissioning was explicitly described as "Federation property." Not "Earth property," or "Vulcan property," or what-have-you property. Federation property.
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Old December 6 2012, 08:51 PM   #81
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post
once you've won control of the orbital space, you've won everything
The phaser that can fire from orbit to the ground, is the same phaser that can fire from the ground to orbit.
True, you wouldn't really have orbital control until you'd neutralized that kind of threat. But a starship vs. surface weaponry is more analogous to ship vs. shore battery, I don't really see how that enters into the infantry question.

Justin
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Old December 6 2012, 09:25 PM   #82
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Since Starfleet is called "Starfleet" and not "United Federation Navy", I doubt that any Federation ground troops are called "Marines" either.

IMO, Starfleet Security probably maintains some units who are specialized and trained in ground warfare.
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Old December 6 2012, 10:34 PM   #83
Merry Christmas
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
Since Starfleet is called "Starfleet" and not "United Federation Navy", I doubt that any Federation ground troops are called "Marines" either
Starmarines then?





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Old December 6 2012, 10:40 PM   #84
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Longinus wrote: View Post
Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
The Federation regularly employs violence, by way of Starfleet. They're hardly "pacifists," certainly not as a group.
'Pacifistic' may be a too strong word, but they tend to portray themselves as being an a mission of peace. Defiant was exceptional that it was a pure warship. Multipurpose security forces seem to fit the ethos better than marines that are purely for combat.
Peace through strength.

And like I said, Marines have many missions other than combat. Look it up.
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Old December 6 2012, 10:45 PM   #85
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

I still fail to see what people want these marines to do that SF security cannot already do.
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Old December 6 2012, 10:49 PM   #86
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

^ Like I keep saying: Starfleet Security is only for providing security officers on board starships. Those are clearly not qualified to be marines as we understand the term. I mean, look at the redshirts you've seen in TOS. Would you want people like that, who seem to get killed at an alarming rate, to be fighting on the front lines?
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Old December 6 2012, 11:20 PM   #87
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Like I keep saying: Starfleet Security is only for providing security officers on board starships. Those are clearly not qualified to be marines as we understand the term. I mean, look at the redshirts you've seen in TOS. Would you want people like that, who seem to get killed at an alarming rate, to be fighting on the front lines?
Weren't they (and by they mean I mean the individuals assigned to the fight) dropping at pretty much the same rate on AR-558?
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Old December 7 2012, 12:20 AM   #88
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Longinus wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Transporters and sensors can be disabled by the enemy. So those are not going to obviate the need for marines. And much of the time, diplomacy simply doesn't work.
Since when has Federation prepared for their constantly failing technology failing? That's not what they do. They expect everything to work perfectly, and when it once more doesn't, they concoct some ad hoc solution on the spot.
Except ironically enough, on Enterprise, when A, they realised they needed capable, trained soldiers ie the MACO's and then B made the MACO, actually capable, savvy, tough and experienced on screen.....remember when the roped in for that rescue ect.

people in trek doing practicle things in combat, my word..
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Old December 7 2012, 12:30 AM   #89
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

The Green Mushroom wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Like I keep saying: Starfleet Security is only for providing security officers on board starships. Those are clearly not qualified to be marines as we understand the term. I mean, look at the redshirts you've seen in TOS. Would you want people like that, who seem to get killed at an alarming rate, to be fighting on the front lines?
Weren't they (and by they mean I mean the individuals assigned to the fight) dropping at pretty much the same rate on AR-558?
Dramatic effect...

We have to keep in mind what would be logical in a real world ST universe is often not capable of being produced on TV for various reasons, from budget to dramatic...

You can't really afford to have 45+ actors going through a small unit combat skills course for a 45 minute episode.....plus AR-558 was designed to show "THE HORROR!"tm....


Look at the difference in something BOB, The Pacific or BHD where the actors went through a boot camp so they could at least fake it it decently....then laugh at the ground combat in ST.


PS before anyone gives out about ground warfare being ..outmoded ect in ST....well despite it's flaws we saw several ground battles and others were mentoned includng the Klingons rather large invasion of Cardassia.


There might not be Kursk sized battles but beaming and sensors have been jammed and disrupted and even local climate/planetary conditons has proved to be capable of screwing up all the fancy technology....so maybe good old MK-I eyeballs and boots on the ground might be needed on occasion.
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Old December 7 2012, 12:41 AM   #90
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

The Green Mushroom wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Like I keep saying: Starfleet Security is only for providing security officers on board starships. Those are clearly not qualified to be marines as we understand the term. I mean, look at the redshirts you've seen in TOS. Would you want people like that, who seem to get killed at an alarming rate, to be fighting on the front lines?
Weren't they (and by they mean I mean the individuals assigned to the fight) dropping at pretty much the same rate on AR-558?
At least then, they died WELL. They weren't incompetent, like most redshirts seemed to be.
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