VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[BillJ]

Sci wrote:

---

Yay. let's hijack Star Trek to propagate our culturally-conditioned superstitions!

Of course, killing people by the billions is soooo much better.

[JD]

Christopher wrote:

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^But what makes people upset is not that it wasn't set up or that they couldn't see it coming. It's that they didn't think it should have happened. You said that you yourself would've preferred it didn't happen, so I can't understand why you're confused that people are upset.

I guess I can see that.

[Sci]

BillJ wrote:

---

Of course, killing people by the billions is soooo much better.

I am aware of no Trek novel that advocates for mass murder, nor any Trek novel whose fans interpret it as advocating for mass murder.

[BillJ]

Sci wrote:

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I am aware of no Trek novel that advocates for mass murder.

And? The Federation committed mass murder in Zero Sum Game in order to protect a military advantage. I don't think a little spirituality is a bad thing in the wake of devastating losses (no I'm not a spiritual person). My only problem is the presentation of Janeway as an essential cog of the universe.

[Kirsten Beyer]

Well now you guys have got me thinking...

What Christopher recounted earlier as our initial conversations about the book was accurate. Initially, I truly was working from the idea of choice and the consequences of those choices...and the idea that big choices like oh, altering the timeline for the sake of convenience, or sparing yourself and others the pain of loss, would come with a heavy price tag. It is, perhaps, my own notion that such choices, however right they might feel at the time, would have a better than average chance of ultimately ending badly.

It was only in the writing of the actual novel, as I found myself in Janeway's head working moment by moment through what might actually happen if you found yourself disembodied in the Q Continuum, that the more spiritual or metaphysical ideas began to surface and resonate. This is most likely because there is no math here that helps me move through this, though Christopher has rightly pointed to a few theories that make sense when applied.

But I don't tend to write or operate from stuff like that when writing characters, even when they are brilliant scientists, because that's not where I can connect to them. If I had half the scientific expertise Christopher does, I like to think I would have ended up as an astronaut rather than a writer. I don't. So you guys are stuck with me for now.

The thing was, I had always been moved by the episode "Sacred Ground." I hear the groans, even as I write this, but I loved that one because it really was such new and different territory for Voyager and Janeway in particular. And that scene at the end where she is sitting in sickbay and the Doctor is explaining why the "miracle" worked has lived in the back of my mind ever since. The look on her face...really devastating for her.

So when Janeway is confronted with the choice...to return to life or let it all go...she's going to look for guidance to any experience she might have had that relates and the events of "Sacred Ground" seemed appropriate.

And as to her sense, and Junior's confirmation that there is something beyond life that even the Q don't know about...that's just me wrestling with one of my big questions. I'm not really speculating as to what the capital T Truth is here....what interests me is the idea that this is a fairly common experience for human beings, both those of faith and those not so inclined.

There is probably a physical or scientific explanation I don't know about that probably has to do with certain chemicals in our brains that produces these "peak" experiences, or strange moments when we suddenly, for no good reason, feel ourselves connected to something bigger than ourselves. It's not a rational thing. I've had them...though more rarely in the context of the religion in which I was raised...and know so many who have...and I really want to know what that thing is beyond a random confluence of neurons and chemicals. I tend to think that it is this sense that keeps so many people connected to religion.

But I'm curious about this not so much as a person of faith, because that's not a good definition of me anymore...but just as a person.

So this...

Enterpriserules wrote:

---

Yet Janeway, in this book learns that there is more to life than just reason and science; there is the metaphysical, something much deeper and more important and it all starts with the life of the soul, faith.

<snip>

Janeway finds that what is metaphysical has much more value in the end than the reason and science she has clung to for so many years. Faith, the soul and destiny are all apart of these things that she is beginning to see the value of.

....kind of overstates the case for me, just a bit. I mean as a reader, you are entitled to whatever you got from the story and I don't want to take any of that away from you. But I don't think I would describe Janeway's new experiences of "faith" as "more important" or more valuable than reason, science, or logic. It's more like, she was living her life one way for as long as she could remember...and then was exposed to a new idea or experience that was also interesting and terribly useful in this context. Kind of like what happened to me the first time I read the works of Joseph Cambell. I felt like my head was going to explode with all of the new stuff churning around in it.

This now gets incorporated into her whole person, but how it will affect her or how long it will take for these new ideas and experiences to settle is an open question. I don't think, however, that she had this experience and is now going to throw all the rest out the window in favor of it going forward.

Yes...she does come back to the idea of "faith" but that faith has no particular definition for her yet beyond the certainty she feels in her gut that balance is the issue here and Junior and Eden represent that balance. For me it is not so much that she has come to realize that whatever that big, unknowable thing that she felt briefly connected to is now guiding her...it is the terror of confronting a moment when the stakes couldn't be higher...looking at all of the relevant information at her disposal regarding that moment...and choosing to trust her own beliefs...the "faith" is less metaphysical at that point...and much more personal. Even when faced with the truly terrible consequences of many of her past choices that the story lays out...she is still capable of looking to her gut and trusting it. Like all of us, when we know better, we do better. The less heroic choice here would be to say, "fuck it...I don't know and as I think we have all seen, I don't have the best track record so do what you think is best." The reason Janeway rises to a new level for me here is not because she is a fated messiah, but because she makes the harder choice...to trust herself and what she sees here...rather than walking away or letting someone else be responsible for the outcome.

Enterpriserules wrote:

---

There is a fine line between the choosing and the idea of Destiny. Junior especially seems to know that he has been made for such a time as this, that it is his first, best destiny to save the galaxy. So he could choose to not save it, but that he will be the fullest and best him if he follows what he has been made to do. ...He later tells this father, "It's not just the power, Father. You know that. It's also the vessel. I am the only Q in existence capable of containing all that I am, all that she needs...It has to be me." Then Janeway makes it abundantly clear

A thin line indeed

Yeah...again...Junior may have come to that point by the end of the story...but he certainly doesn't start there. In the beginning, he has a problem..he can't experience his existence the way the rest of the Q can anymore...and he needs to figure out why. It speaks well of him that once he has figured it out, he steps up and does the right thing, but I think a lot of people, when faced with the choice...me...or everything and everybody else who has ever or will ever exist...would go with self-sacrifice.

Looking back at the way it all came together, I am conscious of two things: my need or desire as the creator of this story to keep all of the various threads connected and resonating but more importantly, starting us off with a group of characters who have a problem and then watching them figure out how to solve it. More than making any bold statements here about the relative values of faith or reason, and certainly not about "destiny"...this comes from the same place all of my stories come from...You take some capable and interesting people and present them with a challenge they are uniquely qualified to handle and watch them as they blunder around in the dark like we all do day after day and try to overcome that challenge.

For me this isn't a story about a grand design that exists outside of us and we are only playing our assigned roles...it's a story about people working their asses off to solve a problem, the nobility of that effort, perhaps, and the sense that on any given day, this is what we are all doing, though our personal stakes may not reach the heights that our characters do. But that's why we explore this stuff in fiction. If we did it too much in real life...can you imagine how busy the fire department would be?

Sci wrote:

---

Yay. let's hijack Star Trek to propagate our culturally-conditioned superstitions!

I just want to say here that I hope you don't feel that was my intention here. I don't think grapling with part of our experience as human beings that is less well understood than all that science has layed bare for us is the same thing as propogating a particular brand of superstitions. I think asking ourselves why so many have these beliefs and exploring some of the experiences that leads to them is interesting, but I am in no way advocating for a particular position, particularly as I am tempermentally and constitutionally ill-equipped to do so.

[/QUOTE]

BillJ wrote:

---

My only problem is the presentation of Janeway as an essential cog of the universe.

And here, I can only imagine that you are taking this from other's reactions to the book rather than your own experience of it? Just because some readers are going to take comfort and pleasure in the idea that there is a plan...somewhere out there, made by whom or what we know not...and that the events of this story suggest such a plan or "destiny", you should not assume that this was all there is to the story and certainly not my intention.

Janeway is essential to the universe or multiverse here as much as any of us are or are not. I'm sure part of this feeling comes from your feelings about the character, to which you are perfectly entitled. But to form an opinion about Janeway's role in this story, you need to experience it for yourself. Which I am not suggesting you do. At all. Far too many other books out there you are likely to enjoy.

Best,
Kirsten

[Sci]

Kirsten Beyer wrote:

---

I just want to say here that I hope you don't feel that was my intention here.

I probably didn't make this clear, but I'm objecting to the manner in which some posters here are framing your work to fit their particular beliefs rather than to your actual writing in and of itself.

[Enterpriserules]

Kirsten Beyer wrote:

---

Well now you guys have got me thinking...

What Christopher recounted earlier as our initial conversations about the book was accurate. Initially, I truly was working from the idea of choice and the consequences of those choices...and the idea that big choices like oh, altering the timeline for the sake of convenience, or sparing yourself and others the pain of loss, would come with a heavy price tag. It is, perhaps, my own notion that such choices, however right they might feel at the time, would have a better than average chance of ultimately ending badly.

It was only in the writing of the actual novel, as I found myself in Janeway's head working moment by moment through what might actually happen if you found yourself disembodied in the Q Continuum, that the more spiritual or metaphysical ideas began to surface and resonate. This is most likely because there is no math here that helps me move through this, though Christopher has rightly pointed to a few theories that make sense when applied.

But I don't tend to write or operate from stuff like that when writing characters, even when they are brilliant scientists, because that's not where I can connect to them. If I had half the scientific expertise Christopher does, I like to think I would have ended up as an astronaut rather than a writer. I don't. So you guys are stuck with me for now.

The thing was, I had always been moved by the episode "Sacred Ground." I hear the groans, even as I write this, but I loved that one because it really was such new and different territory for Voyager and Janeway in particular. And that scene at the end where she is sitting in sickbay and the Doctor is explaining why the "miracle" worked has lived in the back of my mind ever since. The look on her face...really devastating for her.

So when Janeway is confronted with the choice...to return to life or let it all go...she's going to look for guidance to any experience she might have had that relates and the events of "Sacred Ground" seemed appropriate.

And as to her sense, and Junior's confirmation that there is something beyond life that even the Q don't know about...that's just me wrestling with one of my big questions. I'm not really speculating as to what the capital T Truth is here....what interests me is the idea that this is a fairly common experience for human beings, both those of faith and those not so inclined.

There is probably a physical or scientific explanation I don't know about that probably has to do with certain chemicals in our brains that produces these "peak" experiences, or strange moments when we suddenly, for no good reason, feel ourselves connected to something bigger than ourselves. It's not a rational thing. I've had them...though more rarely in the context of the religion in which I was raised...and know so many who have...and I really want to know what that thing is beyond a random confluence of neurons and chemicals. I tend to think that it is this sense that keeps so many people connected to religion.

But I'm curious about this not so much as a person of faith, because that's not a good definition of me anymore...but just as a person.

So this...

....kind of overstates the case for me, just a bit. I mean as a reader, you are entitled to whatever you got from the story and I don't want to take any of that away from you. But I don't think I would describe Janeway's new experiences of "faith" as "more important" or more valuable than reason, science, or logic. It's more like, she was living her life one way for as long as she could remember...and then was exposed to a new idea or experience that was also interesting and terribly useful in this context. Kind of like what happened to me the first time I read the works of Joseph Cambell. I felt like my head was going to explode with all of the new stuff churning around in it.

This now gets incorporated into her whole person, but how it will affect her or how long it will take for these new ideas and experiences to settle is an open question. I don't think, however, that she had this experience and is now going to throw all the rest out the window in favor of it going forward.

Yes...she does come back to the idea of "faith" but that faith has no particular definition for her yet beyond the certainty she feels in her gut that balance is the issue here and Junior and Eden represent that balance. For me it is not so much that she has come to realize that whatever that big, unknowable thing that she felt briefly connected to is now guiding her...it is the terror of confronting a moment when the stakes couldn't be higher...looking at all of the relevant information at her disposal regarding that moment...and choosing to trust her own beliefs...the "faith" is less metaphysical at that point...and much more personal. Even when faced with the truly terrible consequences of many of her past choices that the story lays out...she is still capable of looking to her gut and trusting it. Like all of us, when we know better, we do better. The less heroic choice here would be to say, "fuck it...I don't know and as I think we have all seen, I don't have the best track record so do what you think is best." The reason Janeway rises to a new level for me here is not because she is a fated messiah, but because she makes the harder choice...to trust herself and what she sees here...rather than walking away or letting someone else be responsible for the outcome.

Yeah...again...Junior may have come to that point by the end of the story...but he certainly doesn't start there. In the beginning, he has a problem..he can't experience his existence the way the rest of the Q can anymore...and he needs to figure out why. It speaks well of him that once he has figured it out, he steps up and does the right thing, but I think a lot of people, when faced with the choice...me...or everything and everybody else who has ever or will ever exist...would go with self-sacrifice.

Looking back at the way it all came together, I am conscious of two things: my need or desire as the creator of this story to keep all of the various threads connected and resonating but more importantly, starting us off with a group of characters who have a problem and then watching them figure out how to solve it. More than making any bold statements here about the relative values of faith or reason, and certainly not about "destiny"...this comes from the same place all of my stories come from...You take some capable and interesting people and present them with a challenge they are uniquely qualified to handle and watch them as they blunder around in the dark like we all do day after day and try to overcome that challenge.

For me this isn't a story about a grand design that exists outside of us and we are only playing our assigned roles...it's a story about people working their asses off to solve a problem, the nobility of that effort, perhaps, and the sense that on any given day, this is what we are all doing, though our personal stakes may not reach the heights that our characters do. But that's why we explore this stuff in fiction. If we did it too much in real life...can you imagine how busy the fire department would be?

I just want to say here that I hope you don't feel that was my intention here. I don't think grapling with part of our experience as human beings that is less well understood than all that science has layed bare for us is the same thing as propogating a particular brand of superstitions. I think asking ourselves why so many have these beliefs and exploring some of the experiences that leads to them is interesting, but I am in no way advocating for a particular position, particularly as I am tempermentally and constitutionally ill-equipped to do so.

BillJ wrote:

---

My only problem is the presentation of Janeway as an essential cog of the universe.

And here, I can only imagine that you are taking this from other's reactions to the book rather than your own experience of it? Just because some readers are going to take comfort and pleasure in the idea that there is a plan...somewhere out there, made by whom or what we know not...and that the events of this story suggest such a plan or "destiny", you should not assume that this was all there is to the story and certainly not my intention.

Janeway is essential to the universe or multiverse here as much as any of us are or are not. I'm sure part of this feeling comes from your feelings about the character, to which you are perfectly entitled. But to form an opinion about Janeway's role in this story, you need to experience it for yourself. Which I am not suggesting you do. At all. Far too many other books out there you are likely to enjoy.

Best,
Kirsten[/QUOTE]

Kirsten, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and explain your thinking and writing process. I like how you brought in Joseph Campbell and I felt like I saw some of those motifs in this book. I just want to thank you for giving us so much to talk about. This is what Star Trek at it's best does. It challenges us to think outside of the box. I really appreciate your writing and am so thankful you will be continuing Voyager.

As a person of faith, I do always look the deeper meaning and bigger picture. I do appreciate that you allowed Janeway to experience some kind of awakening to that side of life, even if she has no idea what it means at the moment.

Thank you for giving us a great tale and bringing Janeway back in a tale that has lead to some truly interesting discussion. All good books make us think and challenge our ideals. I hope you know I was not trying to put words into your mouth, just grappling with the book from my perspective. Thanks again for everything and for coming here to help set us crazy fans straight

-Loyal Reader, Matt

[BillJ]

Kirsten Beyer wrote:

---

And here, I can only imagine that you are taking this from other's reactions to the book rather than your own experience of it?

Well, yes and no. My feelings come from not only what I've read about The Eternal Tide but also from Watching the Clock. That the only way for the Milky Way galaxy to survive the Borg was for Janeway to change the course of billions of beings lives.

Janeway is essential to the universe or multiverse here as much as any of us are or are not. I'm sure part of this feeling comes from your feelings about the character, to which you are perfectly entitled.

Thing is... I'm not rabidly pro- or anti-Janeway to any real degree. I've always been lukewarm on the character thinking she's had some nice moments over the years and some real head scratching moments. The biggest problem being that she's all over the place.

Which I am not suggesting you do. At all. Far too many other books out there you are likely to enjoy.

Nice snark!

[teacake]

Wasn't someone doing an interview with Kirsten on a podcast thingie?

Does anyone have the link?

[Kirsten Beyer]

I recorded it back in the middle of October and was told it would be out in a few weeks...so probably any time now. I'm sure they'll post a link here, so keep looking.

Best,
Kirsten

[Kirsten Beyer]

So, here's the link to the latest interview...I still don't know what happened to the one I did for Priority One back in October...

We talk here about a lot more than TET but there's also a bunch of relevant discussion, so....enjoy.


http://trek.fm/literary-treks/litera...ten-beyer.html

Best,
Kirsten Beyer

[Enterpriserules]

Kirsten Beyer wrote:

---

So, here's the link to the latest interview...I still don't know what happened to the one I did for Priority One back in October...

We talk here about a lot more than TET but there's also a bunch of relevant discussion, so....enjoy.


http://trek.fm/literary-treks/litera...ten-beyer.html

Best,
Kirsten Beyer

Had a blast with you Kirsten! Thank you so much! And I am sure I speak for everyone when I say we eagerly anticipate your next Voyager novel.

[Johnhead99]

Enterpriserules wrote:

---

Had a blast with you Kirsten! Thank you so much! And I am sure I speak for everyone when I say we eagerly anticipate your next Voyager novel.

I couldn't agree more about eagerly awaiting the next novel. I am late to the party in this review thread, and due to work, I had fallen behind on my trek reading. The Eternal Tide is somewhere between my 250th and 300th trek read -- I'd have to go back to my notes to find out for certain where it falls, but I did find it very well done. I enjoyed it from beginning to end. I won't go into more detail than that since we already have 35 pages of it -- but it was again a swing and a hit for Beyer who I can honestly say is a top 3 Trek writer at this point. I wish she had Facebook so the fans could interact with her that way. I've enjoyed having the other authors so available.

[Markonian]

Johnhead99 wrote:

---

The Eternal Tide is somewhere between my 250th and 300th Trek read -- I'd have to go back to my notes to find out for certain where it falls, but I did find it very well done.

Do you mean 300th read as in "I have read about 300 invidual items of Trek literature" or "I have read items of Trek literature 300 times",

i.e. are there really more than 300 written outings of Star Trek?

[zarkon]

Markonian wrote:

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Do you mean 300th read as in "I have read about 300 invidual items of Trek literature" or "I have read items of Trek literature 300 times",

i.e. are there really more than 300 written outings of Star Trek?

Easily, I own more then that and I only have a handful of voyager books and no Enterprise books.