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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old December 5 2012, 06:21 AM   #106
teacock
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

exodus wrote: View Post
Tom's arc was about learning responsibility.
And that is why it was so very dull.
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Old December 5 2012, 08:51 AM   #107
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

I thought his arc was about losing hair?
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Old December 5 2012, 11:39 AM   #108
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?



Tom/RDM reminds me so much of Chandler/Perry; that same dissolution from sleek smartarse to brow-beaten filled-out wisecracker. And Hugh's one of the few TNG characters I like: he's just like a puppy emoborg.
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Old December 5 2012, 11:04 PM   #109
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

I think Paris became boring in the later seasons. Before that, he was a great character.

As for Kes, there was never any arc or any "Dark Phoenix" scenario. The two occasions where she "turned bad" during seasons 1-3 were "Cold Fire" and "Warlord" and they were both isolated events, due to outer forces. In "Cold Fire" she was tempted by the evil Tanis but in the long run she stood up against him and saved the ship from destruction. In "Warlord" she was controlled by the warlord Tieran who was in possession of her body and mind but she stood up against him too and was able to defeat him with a little help from her friends. After both those occasions she became her old self again.
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Old December 6 2012, 01:04 AM   #110
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

USS Kongo wrote: View Post
It was really more than just replacing one character with another, it was a total shift in storytelling that changed the dynamics of the series--as many have said, it became the Janeway/Seven/Doctor show.

One wonders if Seven was treated the same by the writers as Kes, where all of the characters had equal time, would Seven still have been as effective?

Sean
I'm just thinking of the Voyager books, and in terms of adventures dealing with Kes, I think the authors of the books even added to Kes, even after she had left the show (the last Kes book in the numbered series was #15 Echoes from early 1998, which is kind of funny considering that, out of all the in-series books, the majority of the books take place within Seasons 1, 2 & 3, while only a few take place in the seasons with Seven).

But with Kes, I also like how they had her play off of Neelix and Tuvok and be the one who always brought the "alien" perspective into focus, like Spock or Data/Worf.
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Old December 6 2012, 10:38 PM   #111
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

^^
Books like "Marooned" and "Echoes" were written before Kes was dumped. But they were published later. As for the events in the books, "Echoes" takes place somewhere between "Futures End" and "Warlord" while "Marooned" takes place after "Before And After" and "Real Life".

As for further information, visit the Kes Website at http://lynx677.byethost12.com/ and continue to the links "Book Reviews" and "Voyager Timeline".

I think that the season 1-3 books are great. Most of the stories are actually better than many episodes. As for Kes, she plays an important role in most of the books.
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Old December 6 2012, 10:52 PM   #112
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Have you read The Eternal Tide yet Lynx? Kes is in that.
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Old December 6 2012, 11:39 PM   #113
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
I think Paris became boring in the later seasons. Before that, he was a great character.
Marriage sometimes does that to people.
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Old December 7 2012, 12:02 AM   #114
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

He was cranial ridge whipped.
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Old December 7 2012, 01:58 AM   #115
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
I think Paris became boring in the later seasons. Before that, he was a great character.

As for Kes, there was never any arc or any "Dark Phoenix" scenario. The two occasions where she "turned bad" during seasons 1-3 were "Cold Fire" and "Warlord" and they were both isolated events, due to outer forces. In "Cold Fire" she was tempted by the evil Tanis but in the long run she stood up against him and saved the ship from destruction. In "Warlord" she was controlled by the warlord Tieran who was in possession of her body and mind but she stood up against him too and was able to defeat him with a little help from her friends. After both those occasions she became her old self again.
Hardly original.
Jean Grey was being manipulated by Mastermind and the White Queen, thus molding the the Phoenix Force they believed to be in her.
Many of Voyager's stories are based on or are similar to other works of sci-fi.

...but if Kes has no story arc., then I guess that could be another a good reason to replace the character too. Voyager had enough stagnant characters like Chakotay, Kim, Neelix and Tuvok, who also had no story arc's of their own. Interesting how 3 of the 4 don't get high marks among the fan base possibly due to it.
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Old December 7 2012, 01:51 PM   #116
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

^^
Well, if we have to nit-pick, then all of the characters should have been dumped after season 3 because none of them had any arc to talk about.Why only Kes?

Teacake wrote:
Have you read The Eternal Tide yet Lynx? Kes is in that.
Yes, I have! However, I do have some mixed emotions about it.

First of all, I'm very happy that Janeway is back!

As for Kes, I'm, happy that the character is described in a positive light and that there's no "Fury" crap involved.

But i'm not that happy over the scenario with Kes back on Ocampa and so on. I would like to have her back on the ship as a member of the crew.

But, as Mick Jagger once wrote: "You can't always get what you want."
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Old December 7 2012, 03:05 PM   #117
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

You two seem to be stuck in some kind of "Cause and Effect" like loop.
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Old December 7 2012, 08:35 PM   #118
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
First of all, I'm very happy that Janeway is back!
They finally brought back Janeway in the Voyager books? About time.

Sean
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Old December 7 2012, 10:10 PM   #119
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
But, as Mick Jagger once wrote: "You can't always get what you want."
And yet he seems to have spent decades getting everything he wants..

USS Kongo wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
First of all, I'm very happy that Janeway is back!
They finally brought back Janeway in the Voyager books? About time.

Sean
YES THEY DID.

She's back, she's 100% real and she's drinking coffee.

Some other thing happened with her that people are happy about but I can't remember what it was.
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Old December 8 2012, 05:31 AM   #120
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

I think it just got different. I loved both Kes and seven ...would have been great to have both
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