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Old December 3 2012, 11:16 PM   #76
Kelthaz
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
^ But Kelthaz said, "Yes, there are no restrictions what-so-ever on health care for anyone." You say "You certainly can't get any treatment you want here." Those can't both be true.
Of course there are some restrictions. If I get a cold I can't call for a private jet to take me to the hospital. And you can't demand whatever insane treatments you want at a moment's notice. But, well, there are no restrictions that will compromise your health*. No matter who you are, no matter how much money you have, you will be given access to proper medical treatment. You might have to wait for a long time if your case isn't life-threatening, but you won't be denied anything that your doctors deem necessary.

Keep in mind that the United States is the only first world country that does not have Universal Health Care. Clearly, if wealthy countries with high standards of living all have Universal Health Care with just one exception there's some merit to the idea. It's not just some hippy, idealistic pipe dream.

* Okay, okay, dental isn't usually covered in Canada and that can compromise your health, but meh. I never said Canada was perfect.
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Old December 3 2012, 11:19 PM   #77
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

I realize what the value of anecdotal evidence is (read: virtually none), on both sides of the issue. However, we are all colored by our own experiences.

All I can tell you is this: I live in the United States. I have not had health insurance for many years. And health care, including routine preventative, what we call "urgent care," and emergency, has never been denied to me because of my ability to pay. Doctors, urgent care centers, hospitals... all have been willing to work with me as someone who did not have health insurance and could not simply fork over thousands of dollars out of pocket. In some cases, it was by setting up payment plans that I could manage. In other cases, it was by reducing the bill by a substantial amount. On a daily basis, I have to take an extremely expensive medication that the maker, AstraZeneca, provides to me at absolutely no cost because I can't afford it on my own.

In short, I have found the notion of being denied health care in the United States because you can't afford it to be as much of a myth as many of you claim to have found things about 'socialized' systems to be myths.
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Old December 3 2012, 11:49 PM   #78
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
I realize what the value of anecdotal evidence is (read: virtually none), on both sides of the issue. However, we are all colored by our own experiences.

All I can tell you is this: I live in the United States. I have not had health insurance for many years. And health care, including routine preventative, what we call "urgent care," and emergency, has never been denied to me because of my ability to pay. Doctors, urgent care centers, hospitals... all have been willing to work with me as someone who did not have health insurance and could not simply fork over thousands of dollars out of pocket. In some cases, it was by setting up payment plans that I could manage. In other cases, it was by reducing the bill by a substantial amount. On a daily basis, I have to take an extremely expensive medication that the maker, AstraZeneca, provides to me at absolutely no cost because I can't afford it on my own.

In short, I have found the notion of being denied health care in the United States because you can't afford it to be as much of a myth as many of you claim to have found things about 'socialized' systems to be myths.
All I can say is, you've been very fortunate in your experiences.
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Old December 3 2012, 11:51 PM   #79
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

I went to the emergency room once without insurance and got charged $90 for an ibuprofen. Just because they treat you doesn't mean everybody can afford it or work something out. People rack up doctor's bills in the tens of thousands of dollars that they can't pay off. God forbid they ever try to get a mortgage or something.
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Old December 4 2012, 12:35 AM   #80
teya
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
I realize what the value of anecdotal evidence is (read: virtually none), on both sides of the issue. However, we are all colored by our own experiences.

All I can tell you is this: I live in the United States. I have not had health insurance for many years. And health care, including routine preventative, what we call "urgent care," and emergency, has never been denied to me because of my ability to pay. Doctors, urgent care centers, hospitals... all have been willing to work with me as someone who did not have health insurance and could not simply fork over thousands of dollars out of pocket. In some cases, it was by setting up payment plans that I could manage. In other cases, it was by reducing the bill by a substantial amount. On a daily basis, I have to take an extremely expensive medication that the maker, AstraZeneca, provides to me at absolutely no cost because I can't afford it on my own.

In short, I have found the notion of being denied health care in the United States because you can't afford it to be as much of a myth as many of you claim to have found things about 'socialized' systems to be myths.
So, who pays for your care?

Setting aside the drugs (and most pharmaceutical companies have similar plans), who pays for the reduction in your bill?

The hospital eats it.

Now, that might not be an issue for you, but when a hospital eats non-payments over and over and over and over, they eventually run in the red. Then they close.

Or, they raise their rates & the discount you get is paid for by other patients.

But, in the spirit of anecdotal evidence...

My SIL was born with a dislocated hip. As a child, she had what was considered state-of-the-art surgery for the condition. She's now 42. The hardware in her hip is breaking down & one of the pins has worn a groove through the cartilage on the head of her femur. Every step she takes is shaving off a bit of bone, and that's a very vascular bone. It's excruciating.

Her orthopod says she needs a hip replacement. Because of her prior surgery, there are only 2 hospitals in the country where it can be done (there's a danger of shattering her pelvis if the old hardware isn't removed properly). Fortunately for her, one's in NYC, a short 40 miles from her home.

Her insurance company refused to authorize the surgery. Why?

Because she's 42 years old & the artificial hip will need to be replaced within her lifetime. They told her she'd be approved for a hip replacement once she turns 55.

By the time she's 55, she'll be permanently disabled, unable to walk or work.

She could pay for the surgery out of pocket--if she had $75K to spend. She doesn't. She lives in pain.
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Old December 4 2012, 12:50 AM   #81
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

^That's horrible, teya. All insurance companies have an appeals process -- has she tried that yet?
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Old December 4 2012, 01:53 AM   #82
teya
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

^ Yep. She started fighting at 38 & is still fighting.
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Old December 4 2012, 02:01 AM   #83
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

^ OMG, that's awful!
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Old December 4 2012, 03:28 AM   #84
propita
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

thestrangequark wrote: View Post
^I agree with everything you said. That was the argument I was attempting to make: it is immoral to ration based on ability to pay rather than medical necessity.
Note: using the general "you"

Don't you love it when you intend to say one thing, it comes out wrong, and then someone straightens it all out? At those times, I always think, "Now why couldn't I have put it like that and avoided the confusion?" **sigh**

teya, that just sucks. For the money blown on these ambulance abusers I cited, your SIL could have her surgery and there'd be lots left over!!
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Old December 4 2012, 03:32 AM   #85
DanCPA
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
They're not going to go away either way.
Some of them will.
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Old December 4 2012, 03:39 AM   #86
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

I've never seen anyone turned away. I've seen some people with huge bills that cause them credit problems later... but never denied
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
CoveTom wrote: View Post
I realize what the value of anecdotal evidence is (read: virtually none), on both sides of the issue. However, we are all colored by our own experiences.

All I can tell you is this: I live in the United States. I have not had health insurance for many years. And health care, including routine preventative, what we call "urgent care," and emergency, has never been denied to me because of my ability to pay. Doctors, urgent care centers, hospitals... all have been willing to work with me as someone who did not have health insurance and could not simply fork over thousands of dollars out of pocket. In some cases, it was by setting up payment plans that I could manage. In other cases, it was by reducing the bill by a substantial amount. On a daily basis, I have to take an extremely expensive medication that the maker, AstraZeneca, provides to me at absolutely no cost because I can't afford it on my own.

In short, I have found the notion of being denied health care in the United States because you can't afford it to be as much of a myth as many of you claim to have found things about 'socialized' systems to be myths.
All I can say is, you've been very fortunate in your experiences.
teya wrote: View Post

There are, for example, only so many hearts available for transplant.
Never... Obama will create new hearts

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Fortunately, we over in the civilized world, have developed this wonderful new concept known as a "line".
And the DMV and post office have developed them also. And there are times when you have to wait an hour or more for the DMV in California. If someone needs a surgery and the wait is 4 years? What happens then?
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Old December 4 2012, 03:46 AM   #87
J. Allen
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
CoveTom wrote: View Post
I realize what the value of anecdotal evidence is (read: virtually none), on both sides of the issue. However, we are all colored by our own experiences.

All I can tell you is this: I live in the United States. I have not had health insurance for many years. And health care, including routine preventative, what we call "urgent care," and emergency, has never been denied to me because of my ability to pay. Doctors, urgent care centers, hospitals... all have been willing to work with me as someone who did not have health insurance and could not simply fork over thousands of dollars out of pocket. In some cases, it was by setting up payment plans that I could manage. In other cases, it was by reducing the bill by a substantial amount. On a daily basis, I have to take an extremely expensive medication that the maker, AstraZeneca, provides to me at absolutely no cost because I can't afford it on my own.

In short, I have found the notion of being denied health care in the United States because you can't afford it to be as much of a myth as many of you claim to have found things about 'socialized' systems to be myths.
All I can say is, you've been very fortunate in your experiences.
Very fortunate, indeed. I could wish for that kind of fortune.
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Old December 4 2012, 03:51 AM   #88
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

propita wrote: View Post
thestrangequark wrote: View Post
^I agree with everything you said. That was the argument I was attempting to make: it is immoral to ration based on ability to pay rather than medical necessity.
Note: using the general "you"

Don't you love it when you intend to say one thing, it comes out wrong, and then someone straightens it all out? At those times, I always think, "Now why couldn't I have put it like that and avoided the confusion?" **sigh**
It happens to me all the time. I get ragged on for making walls of text, but it seems like if I try to get a point across in fewer then nine paragraphs people think I'm arguing the opposite.

In fairness, I wasn't being particularly clear. I entered this thread only half-assedly, because it's tiring arguing for universal healthcare. So I'll make my position completely unambiguous: every major argument against socialized health care in the United States is based either in lies and misinformation exploiting the ignorant, or in moral repugnancy. It is cheaper, more efficient, more effective, more pragmatic, more rational, and more humane than the US system and we're the only nation that has the means but are too stupid and selfish to haul our fat asses out of the dark ages and just fucking do it.
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Old December 4 2012, 04:08 AM   #89
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

TighsEye wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
They're not going to go away either way.
Some of them will.
Why? You don't think there will be a market to cater for those who want premium health care service at a premium price?

TighsEye wrote: View Post
And the DMV and post office have developed them also. And there are times when you have to wait an hour or more for the DMV in California. If someone needs a surgery and the wait is 4 years? What happens then?
The DMV isn't the equivalent of surgery (at least, not emergency surgery). The DMV is where people go for routine things and all have to enter the same line. Hospitals can separate the lines for checkups from the line for surgery.
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Old December 4 2012, 04:17 AM   #90
DanCPA
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
TighsEye wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
They're not going to go away either way.
Some of them will.
Why? You don't think there will be a market to cater for those who want premium health care service at a premium price?
A much smaller one. The price of these premium plans will soar and less people will be able to have them.
TighsEye wrote: View Post
And the DMV and post office have developed them also. And there are times when you have to wait an hour or more for the DMV in California. If someone needs a surgery and the wait is 4 years? What happens then?
The DMV isn't the equivalent of surgery (at least, not emergency surgery). The DMV is where people go for routine things and all have to enter the same line. Hospitals can separate the lines for checkups from the line for surgery.
True, but in the end there are still limited resources. I understand the benefits of socializing medicine... but when you go to the poorest neighborhoods in our nation, there is near universal health care because of programs for the poor... and they have the worst care! King hospital in LA was a disaster. It was shut down. And now the government is going to pay less for procedures... It won't end well
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