RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,599
Posts: 5,404,653
Members: 24,870
Currently online: 435
Newest member: The Hooded Man

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Gold Key Archives Vol. 2 Comic
By: T'Bonz on Oct 1

Cumberbatch In War Of Roses Miniseries
By: T'Bonz on Oct 1

Trek 3 Filming Location Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Oct 1

October-November 2014 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Cho Selfie TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

TPTB To Shatner: Shhh!
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Mystery Mini Vinyl Figure Display Box
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

The Red Shirt Diaries Episode Five
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

Shatner In Trek 3? Well Maybe
By: T'Bonz on Sep 28

Retro Review: Shadows and Symbols
By: Michelle on Sep 27


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Future of Trek

Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 3 2012, 12:45 PM   #106
Longinus
Commander
 
Longinus's Avatar
 
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Solarbaby wrote: View Post
I would love to see a Chaplain in Trek. It would bring a modern day issue to the franchise that has not been seen before. Imagine the stories of conflict it could provide. Especially religion over science to explain the unknown.
Star Trek has had shows where the issue has been approached. Usually the religion is seen as superstition and scientific reality is the truth. 'Who Watchers the Watchers' is a good example.

Bajoran religion is portrayed in more positive light. Their gods are real and Federation sees them as an advanced sort of an alien. Still, Bajorians revering them is not shown as purely a bad thing, even though more dogmatic side of their religion sometimes is. Still, I'm sure Picard wouldn't approve, afterall, it's same thing as Mintakans worshipping him or if Federation started to worship Q. If Federation people truly were religious, they would approach prophets and other god-aliens differently. They would consider the possibility that these obviouly divine beings would have important spiritual messages for them. They don't. Were Starfleet to meet Jahve they would classify him as an non-corporeal energy being and ask him to explain the holocaust at Sodom and Gomorrah.

Regarding the Katra side discussion. Perhaps it isn't a case of the Katra is a spirit or it is a scientific process the Vulcans understand. Perhaps it is something the Vulcans cannot explain. They are ware of it and how to collect and preserve the spirit but not actually what it is. There was no evidence to suggest that they had any doctors who knew what was happening. How could you scan the Katra with a tricorder? It probably doesn't even read as a second brain wave on tricorder scans.

That it exists - but there is no explanation makes it either a pre-paradigmatic psi-science or a spiritual oddity.
Why people assume Vulcans don't understand Katras? It is represented as mysterius to evoke suspense in the movie, but whole Vulcan telepathy thing is quite odd from modern perspective, but that's not magic either.

I found it troubling that people assume there could be some sort of special sort of mysterious truths that cannot be studied by normal means. That is just not rational. Either so called 'supernatural' things are real, and then can be studied as any other phenomenon, or they are not real and are just imagined. There is no other categories, either in reality or in Star Trek.

Last edited by Longinus; December 3 2012 at 01:00 PM.
Longinus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 01:10 PM   #107
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Location: t'girl
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Longinus wrote: View Post
To me Star Trek represents (and should represent) sort of evelved humanity that has no use for religion. They solve their problems with reason. Superstition just do not fit that worldview.
commanderkai wrote: View Post
... to highlight the diversity of humanity.
In my own mind, the size of the Federation is approximately 800 billion to 1 trillion people, this is the number I use in my head. It is composed of hundreds of intelligent alien species, thousands of worlds and millions of cultures and societal groups.

I could no more conceive of most of them belonging to the same church, than I could most of them being atheists.

The people of the Federation probably have a dizzying number of opinions and beliefs on the subject we've been discussing. Atheism would be a part of the overall mix. This in no way changes the Federation into a theocracy, or Starfleet into a group of missionaries. A Chaplain would one character among many on any new show, he or she would be a difference to what has come before, and a exploration of a aspect of Starfleet and the Federation that we haven't seen previously.

This is Merry Christmas, and I approve this message.

__________________
.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares shall farm for those who retained their swords
T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 06:25 PM   #108
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

I find it truly bizarre that Roddenberry being an Agnostic (I'll believe in God when there's proof, but, I won't dismiss the possibility of God's existence either without proof) would mandate all of Star Trek must be Atheist (God absolutely doesn't exist and anyone who believes in a God is a Moron).

There is so much more room for stories through an Agnostic lens then an Athiest one, why would an Agnostic mandate Atheism in Trek, if he won't even label himself as Atheist?
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 06:34 PM   #109
137th Gebirg
Rear Admiral
 
137th Gebirg's Avatar
 
Location: Who is John Galt?
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

^^^ It is odd, especially considering how J. Michael Straczynski, a self-admitted atheist, was far better able to convey the meaning of spirituality, faith and religion in Babylon 5 in a very convincing and respectful way.
__________________
Gebirgswick - Ind, Tra, Sec & Env.
137th Gebirg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 08:24 PM   #110
Longinus
Commander
 
Longinus's Avatar
 
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Eh, the difference between agnostic and atheist is vague one. Absolute hard atheists are exceedingly rare, i.e. 'I am 100% certain that there is no God.' Way more common stance is 'There is no evidence for a God, so I see no reason to assume that one exists.' Even Richard Dawkins is the latter sort of an atheist.
Longinus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 09:50 PM   #111
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Longinus wrote: View Post
Way more common stance is 'There is no evidence for a God, so I see no reason to assume that one exists.' Even Richard Dawkins is the latter sort of an atheist.
That's not Atheism, that's Agnosticism.

Not sure how you can say the difference is vague between absolute Certainty and Uncertainty?
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 10:01 PM   #112
Longinus
Commander
 
Longinus's Avatar
 
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Atheism do not require absolute certainty about the non-existence of God, it can be (and more often is) lack of belief in God. These are sometimes called strong and weak atheism.

I am not 100% certain that ghosts, leprechauns, vampires or invisible pink unicorns do not exist. I merely have no reason to assume that they do exist so I do not believe in them.

Last edited by Longinus; December 3 2012 at 10:54 PM.
Longinus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 10:23 PM   #113
137th Gebirg
Rear Admiral
 
137th Gebirg's Avatar
 
Location: Who is John Galt?
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Hmmm...this might travel into the interesting and prickly path of "is atheism in-and-of-iteslf a faith, for lack of empirical evidence for or against its precepts?"
__________________
Gebirgswick - Ind, Tra, Sec & Env.
137th Gebirg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 10:45 PM   #114
Longinus
Commander
 
Longinus's Avatar
 
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Hmmm...this might travel into the interesting and prickly path of "is atheism in-and-of-iteslf a faith, for lack of empirical evidence for or against its precepts?"
No. That's not how atheism works. Atheism is lack of belief in God, not faith in non-existence of God.

Do you have empirical evidence for the existence of leprechauns? Do you believe in leprechauns?

Most people would say that there is no evidence for the existence of leprechauns and consequently they do not believe in leprechauns.

Now replace the leprechauns with God, and that's atheism.
Longinus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 11:06 PM   #115
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Longinus wrote: View Post
Atheism do not require absolute certainty about the non-existence of God, it can be (and more often is) lack of belief in God. These are sometimes called strong and weak atheism.

I am not 100% certain that ghosts, leprechauns, vampires or invisible pink unicorns do not exist. I merely have no reason to assume that they do exist so I do not believe in them.
Dictionary.com disagrees with you.

Atheism
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


Agnostic
1.
a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. Synonyms: disbeliever, nonbeliever, unbeliever; doubter, skeptic, secularist, empiricist; heathen, heretic, infidel, pagan.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

3. a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic: Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.

So, Atheism is a certainty of no God or disbelief of God, (IE: Anti-Theist). Agnosticism is a lack of belief
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 11:59 PM   #116
Longinus
Commander
 
Longinus's Avatar
 
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Longinus wrote: View Post
Atheism do not require absolute certainty about the non-existence of God, it can be (and more often is) lack of belief in God. These are sometimes called strong and weak atheism.

I am not 100% certain that ghosts, leprechauns, vampires or invisible pink unicorns do not exist. I merely have no reason to assume that they do exist so I do not believe in them.
Dictionary.com disagrees with you.

Atheism
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


Agnostic
1.
a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. Synonyms: disbeliever, nonbeliever, unbeliever; doubter, skeptic, secularist, empiricist; heathen, heretic, infidel, pagan.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

3. a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic: Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.

So, Atheism is a certainty of no God or disbelief of God, (IE: Anti-Theist). Agnosticism is a lack of belief
Dictionary is correct, you interpretation of it is not.

Anti-theism is not same as atheism. It is active opposition of religion, belief that religion is harmful.

The dictionary definition 1 of atheism is sometimes called strong atheism while 2 is weak atheism.

Agnostism means that you admit that you don't know, even that it is impossible to know, that things could be either way.

Now, back to leprechauns.

Are you a leprechaunist, aleprechaunist or agnostic towards leprechauns?
Longinus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2012, 12:25 AM   #117
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Belief in No God and Disbelief in God are the exact same thing. Atheism is a firm conviction, there is no wiggle room of "Maybe". Maybe is Agnosticism
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2012, 12:43 AM   #118
Longinus
Commander
 
Longinus's Avatar
 
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Sindatur, you are just wrong. Sorry. Please think of the leprechauns; it should help to get this.
Longinus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2012, 05:07 AM   #119
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

I don't suppose you could provide a source that more explicitly supports your definition? Because otherwise your interpretation is...unique, in my experience.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2012, 06:30 AM   #120
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Longinus wrote: View Post
Sindatur, you are just wrong. Sorry. Please think of the leprechauns; it should help to get this.
You can make up definitions all day long, but, if someone doesn't put them in the Dictionary for you, it's unlikely they'll be widely accepted.

Atheism depends upon a certainty of a side to be taken (Either a Disbelief in the positive or a belief in the negative). Straight up, that's what the definition says.

Agnosticism is the one that allows you to softly take a side or refuse to take a side.
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:15 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.