RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,154
Posts: 5,344,072
Members: 24,600
Currently online: 711
Newest member: Lord Galen

TrekToday headlines

New Funko Trek Figure
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Saldana As A Role Model
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

San Diego Comic-Con Trek Fan Guide
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Cumberbatch As Turing
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Retro Review: In the Pale Moonlight
By: Michelle on Jul 19

Trek Beach Towel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 18

Two New Starships Collection Releases
By: T'Bonz on Jul 17

Giacchino Tour Arrives In North America
By: T'Bonz on Jul 17

IDW Publishing October Star Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Jul 16

Cho As Romantic Lead
By: T'Bonz on Jul 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 2 2012, 08:04 PM   #16
neozeks
Captain
 
neozeks's Avatar
 
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
I think that the security personnel we see are basically military police. And while like modern day MP's they can be employed in combat, it isn't their specialty. A security guard might be able to (in an emergency) take the helm, but not their primary training.
Millitary police type duties are definitely part of their job but I'd say they are a bit more than just that. They're like what the Marines were up until the beginning of the 20th century. They maintained shipboard security but were more like ship-based soldiers with additional security missions than just military police and they participated in plenty of land actions and combat.
__________________
What if it's a smart fungus?
neozeks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 08:42 AM   #17
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

"Marines", "soldiers" or "Army" all carry the connotation that this is an organization somehow separate from "Starfleet proper". There's no evidence of there existing any organizations separate from Starfleet proper, though: things like Starfleet Security and Starfleet Medical all appear to be part of the same organization, with parallel branches in a hierarchy consisting of many more or less identical branches.

We have seen people we could interpret as being ground fighting specialists. But we have also seen engineering specialists, medical specialists and people specializing in astrophysics. They all carry the same Starfleet-pattern (that is, Navy-pattern) ranks and answer to the same generic Starfleet bosses, even if through a department head who's also something of a specialist (but most of the explicit department heads we see are actually generalists!).

Moreover, when we do see ground fighters, they, too, have Starfleet-pattern ranks: the people who fought at AR-558 were commanded by a Captain and then a Commander, supposedly in that order, not by a Colonel and a Major. The remaining evidence is neutral, with the rank of Lieutenant assigned to a ground fighter or three, making it impossible to distinguish between Navy and Army patterns. There has never been a Starfleet officer or crewman performing ground fighting duties and carrying an Army-pattern rank.

None of this means there wouldn't exist a specialist branch in Starfleet dedicated to ground fighting, or boarding action, or aerial fighting or whatnot; perhaps there even exist separate branches for all, with some people dedicating their careers to mastering the art of fighting in an antigrav harness a minimum of fifty meters off the ground, and others serving in a specialist force that fights on the outer hulls of starships. Perhaps the existence of multiple small branches like that is what preempts the use of the term "Marines" in Star Trek dialogue?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 11:11 AM   #18
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
There are no mention of marines in the Trek novelverse.
There is at least one that does, The Forgotten War.
I've got that one but haven't read it yet. I'm curious to see how they're featured.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 03:13 PM   #19
Darkwing
Commodore
 
Location: This dry land thing is too wierd!
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Why should they be Sam Fed's Misguided Children, and not the UPF MC? Personally, I think they should exist, as well as UPF Army, but am less certain about equivalents to the AF and CG existing as stand-alone services. More likely, they'd be part of the naval Starfleet structure.
__________________
If you don’t drink the kool-aid, you’re a baaad person - Rev Jim Jones
Almond kool-aid, anyone? Or do you prefer pudding?- Darkwing
Darkwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 05:53 PM   #20
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Darkwing wrote: View Post
Why should they be Sam Fed's Misguided Children, and not the UPF MC? Personally, I think they should exist, as well as UPF Army, but am less certain about equivalents to the AF and CG existing as stand-alone services. More likely, they'd be part of the naval Starfleet structure.
Well, we know from VOY's "Thirty Days" that there is a such thing as the Federation Naval Patrol.

I myself like the idea that the Federation has its own Federation Army and other branches alongside the Federation Starfleet, but the canonical evidence seems to imply that Starfleet's unique force-projection abilities have mostly rendered conventional armies and other forces obsolete.

And it's not implausible that Starfleet might encompass multiple service branches. The Canadian Forces encompasses the Canadian Army, the Royal Canadian Navy, and the Royal Canadian Air Force, all under a single service force.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 06:16 PM   #21
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Timo wrote: View Post
"Marines", "soldiers" or "Army" all carry the connotation that this is an organization somehow separate from "Starfleet proper".
Not necessarily. Starfleet Marines would still be considered Starfleet officers. They just have a different specialty, that's all. They would attend the same Academy as the rest of Starfleet (just like US Marine officers are graduates of the Naval Academy). They'll just have different ranks, like Major, Colonel, General, etc. Doesn't make them any less Starfleet.
__________________
In labor news: Longshoremen walked off the piers today. Rescue operations are continuing.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 06:38 PM   #22
neozeks
Captain
 
neozeks's Avatar
 
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Sci wrote: View Post
And it's not implausible that Starfleet might encompass multiple service branches. The Canadian Forces encompasses the Canadian Army, the Royal Canadian Navy, and the Royal Canadian Air Force, all under a single service force.
Kirk did say Starfleet was a "combined service" in "Tomorrow is Yesterday".

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
They'll just have different ranks, like Major, Colonel, General, etc.
It's not like they even need to have army-style ranks, that's just a matter of tradition (Earth tradition, and it's not even completely universal here) and it's pretty much only cosmetic. Every army rank has it's naval counterpart.
__________________
What if it's a smart fungus?
neozeks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 06:39 PM   #23
J.T.B.
Commodore
 
J.T.B.'s Avatar
 
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think Starfleet's security division does have personnel that are Starfleet Marines in everything but name.
I think that fits the on-screen evidence best. Starfleet's shipboard security teams seem a good match for the early incarnations of US or British Marines. Just as the US Navy began combining shipboard detachments into a larger Fleet Marine Force, which in turn evolved into something bigger and much more extensive, I can see Starfleet's shipboard security being the initial basis of something that became (or could become, if needed) a larger and semi-independent "ground" force.

As for terminology, as an all-rolled-into-one "combined service" Starfleet may intentionally avoid terms traditionally tied to one environment like "army," "navy" or "marines." The titles of ranks don't really mean much in the long run; while Britain and the US put army-type units aboard ship as marines, other nations worked the other way and organized sailors into marine/naval infantry forces with naval-style titles, insignia and dress uniforms. And for 70 years the US Navy has had Seabee units with naval-type ranks running land-type units -- regiments, battalions companies and so on -- and it has worked fine.

Justin
J.T.B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 07:51 PM   #24
Darkwing
Commodore
 
Location: This dry land thing is too wierd!
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Sci wrote: View Post
Well, we know from VOY's "Thirty Days" that there is a such thing as the Federation Naval Patrol.
Which sounds like a separate service.

I myself like the idea that the Federation has its own Federation Army and other branches alongside the Federation Starfleet, but the canonical evidence seems to imply that Starfleet's unique force-projection abilities have mostly rendered conventional armies and other forces obsolete.
Yes and no. I could see the Marines becoming the mobile, power-projecting ground force, and the Army becoming a garrison force that drills and defends a specific place - usually major colonies and core worlds. In other words, the army no longer deploys; the Marines do all that. This would permit a much smaller Army - which would be more politically palatable, because many think armies only exist for defense and conquest, but navies have a much broader remit, and marine forces are seen as an adjunct to that. So the UPF could easily maintain a UPFMC/SFMC larger proportionally than today's US ARMY, while having a rump Army just big enough to man defense installations on selected planets, and all the big-idea visioneers who want to believe in a peaceful, non-military Starfleet can convince themselves that SF is really a super-NASA that can fight when needed, and the MC are just a tool they keep for when that becomes necessary, but that they have just enough Army to hold their homes safe - rather like the big-idea men in the late 18th century wanted a militia, not a standing Army, to provide for adequate defense without permitting conquest.
Of course, the Dominion War and various other wars begin to show that a purely garrison force doesn't suffice, and a rapid-response MC force can't bring the heavy firepower a real, mobile, deployable Army can, and so the policy is actually not as wise in practice as it seems in politics and theory, but that veers into wider territory...

And it's not implausible that Starfleet might encompass multiple service branches. The Canadian Forces encompasses the Canadian Army, the Royal Canadian Navy, and the Royal Canadian Air Force, all under a single service force.
But then I'd expect Kirk, Picard, et alia to refer to themselves as sailors or spacers in the Federation Starfleet Navy.
__________________
If you don’t drink the kool-aid, you’re a baaad person - Rev Jim Jones
Almond kool-aid, anyone? Or do you prefer pudding?- Darkwing
Darkwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 07:57 PM   #25
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

we know from VOY's "Thirty Days" that there is a such thing as the Federation Naval Patrol.
Which sounds like a Boy Scouts type of organization, rather than an actual line of employment let alone a defense organization. After all, it involves "ancient sailing ships" somehow!

But then I'd expect Kirk, Picard, et alia to refer to themselves as sailors or spacers in the Federation Starfleet Navy.
Naturally, "Starfleet" might be the part that is analogous with "Navy", while "Federation" we know is the armada-like defense organization defending, well, the "Federation" (as explicated by Chris Pike).

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 07:59 PM   #26
Darkwing
Commodore
 
Location: This dry land thing is too wierd!
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
I think that fits the on-screen evidence best. Starfleet's shipboard security teams seem a good match for the early incarnations of US or British Marines. Just as the US Navy began combining shipboard detachments into a larger Fleet Marine Force, which in turn evolved into something bigger and much more extensive, I can see Starfleet's shipboard security being the initial basis of something that became (or could become, if needed) a larger and semi-independent "ground" force.
Possible, even plausible, but I doubt Roddenberry ever thought that out.

As for terminology, as an all-rolled-into-one "combined service" Starfleet may intentionally avoid terms traditionally tied to one environment like "army," "navy" or "marines." The titles of ranks don't really mean much in the long run; while Britain and the US put army-type units aboard ship as marines, other nations worked the other way and organized sailors into marine/naval infantry forces with naval-style titles, insignia and dress uniforms. And for 70 years the US Navy has had Seabee units with naval-type ranks running land-type units -- regiments, battalions companies and so on -- and it has worked fine.

Justin
True, but Roddenberry deliberately chose to use the structure and ranks of the US Navy as it existed then to connect to the audience more easily. When TMP was made, their research company advised them to make Kirk an admiral,not a commodore, because the US Navy had changed the rank between TOS and TMP, and they went with it because they were still tied to following their real-world model. Now, by TNG, they no longer used a research company (it was a department of Desilu during TOS, and during TMP, movie companies still contracted that service, but by now it's mostly just a search service to avoid using copyrighted or real-world names without permission), and stopped trying to match things up to the real world, but if Roddenberry had intended the "combined service" thing to cover this, I think he'd have included some dialog to that effect and shown somewhere some naval infantry or other service types rolled under the Starfleet umbrella.
__________________
If you don’t drink the kool-aid, you’re a baaad person - Rev Jim Jones
Almond kool-aid, anyone? Or do you prefer pudding?- Darkwing
Darkwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 08:09 PM   #27
Darkwing
Commodore
 
Location: This dry land thing is too wierd!
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Timo wrote: View Post
we know from VOY's "Thirty Days" that there is a such thing as the Federation Naval Patrol.
Which sounds like a Boy Scouts type of organization, rather than an actual line of employment let alone a defense organization. After all, it involves "ancient sailing ships" somehow!
Well, the CG still trains on them, and Annapolis used to. The US Navy still operates the Constitution. So the FNP could be a wet-navy adjunct to a garrison army as I explicated above.
Or it could be a National Guard-equivalent force, a ROTC/JROTC-style organization, or a branch of Starfleet.

Naturally, "Starfleet" might be the part that is analogous with "Navy", while "Federation" we know is the armada-like defense organization defending, well, the "Federation" (as explicated by Chris Pike).

Timo Saloniemi
I tend to think that "Starfleet" would be the umbrella name, and Navy would describe which arm of that ovarall organization they served in. But in a galaxy, the navy would cover the largest volume, and become the tail that wags the dog, so in common usage, you might understand "Starfleet" to mean "Starfleet Navy", while other services would be described the opposite way: "Army" meaning "Starfleet Army". But when introducing himself to the government of an independent planet, he'd say "Starfleet Navy", and when meeting a governor on a UPF world, he might say "Starfleet", only to have the governor say "you're probably wondering why I asked for the Navy..."
__________________
If you don’t drink the kool-aid, you’re a baaad person - Rev Jim Jones
Almond kool-aid, anyone? Or do you prefer pudding?- Darkwing
Darkwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2012, 11:10 PM   #28
Sector 7
Rear Admiral
 
Sector 7's Avatar
 
Location: McCrory/Hitler's Republic of North Carolina
Send a message via AIM to Sector 7
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Security officers (i.e. redshirts) are starship crew. They're not meant for ground combat.
But they've seen doing such during away missions.

I think the only real difference between starship security personnel and ground troops is that the latter is generally deployed in much larger numbers on a planetary surface and may have specialized equipment. Otherwise, they're probably interchangeable.
Redshirts are definitely NOT the Marines of StarFleet. They are usually the FIRST ones to get themselves killed on landing parties!
__________________
“When all Americans are treated as equal, no matter who they are or whom they love, we are all more free.” -Pres. Obama
"A great democracy does not make it harder to vote than to buy an assault weapon." -Pres. Clinton
Sector 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2012, 12:10 AM   #29
LobsterAfternoon
Commander
 
LobsterAfternoon's Avatar
 
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

I could certainly see Starfleet having Marines as a specialized department within its ranks, similar to how we have Starfleet Corp of Engineers, Starfleet Medical, etc. I just don't see how they could have different ranks than the rest of Starfleet.
LobsterAfternoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2012, 12:16 AM   #30
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Security officers (i.e. redshirts) are starship crew. They're not meant for ground combat.
But they've seen doing such during away missions.

I think the only real difference between starship security personnel and ground troops is that the latter is generally deployed in much larger numbers on a planetary surface and may have specialized equipment. Otherwise, they're probably interchangeable.
Redshirts are definitely NOT the Marines of StarFleet. They are usually the FIRST ones to get themselves killed on landing parties!
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:04 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.