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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old December 1 2012, 10:39 PM   #46
teacake
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Sure she might have been as effective. If you are giving all characters equal time (which the first three seasons didn't actually do) you are still telling their stories on the ship. If it's a Harry story may play it for laughs with his nervousness around 7, if it's a B'Elanna story it may be about her hostility towards 7 etc..

Even if there were less stories about 7 they would have still used her in other character stories because she was a challenge to those characters.
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Old December 2 2012, 05:06 AM   #47
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
Kes wasn'st spending all her time in sickbay or in the Hydroponic Bay. She spent a lot of time on the bridge
Bring the capt. her coffee isn't exactly spending time on the bridge.

When it comes to exploring the ship and the holodeck, don't forget that it was one and a half month between "Caretaker (Stardate 48315.6=26 April 2371) and "Parallax (Stardate 48439.7=10 June 2371). She had a lot of time to explore the ship and the holodeck during those weeks.
If all that is happening off screen, then we the audience aren't watching her grow and develop thru experiences then are we?

Not to mention that there were no similar development of Neelix and the Maquis characters either. They joined the Voyager crew and BOOM! Already in "Parallax" they were all settled in in their roles at the ship.
There were issues with the Maquis up until "Meld". The Maquis in "Learning Curve" and Suder were issues dealing with Maquis not following Starfleet protocol as well as murdering a fellow officer because "He looked at me funny."
Neelix could do much of anything right.
He wasn't a very good guide or cook.
I'm not sure how that equates into settling into his role, he wasn't hired to be a jester.

Comparing Kes with Seven is unfair because the show shifted focus when Seven came in and became the main character of the show. Kes was never expected to be the main character in the same way Seven was.
Yeah, she was. In the book "Voyager Companion" it describes Kes (who working title was "Mayfly) as the character the audience and crew would see the journey thru the eyes of. Which means she was to be the focus and we were supposed to experience everything from mainly her point of view.

Kes was a great character who personified the spirit of Star Trek with her will to learn and explore.
So Spock, Data, Odo, Worf and the Doctor weren't?
The spirit of Star Trek isn't the stories of exploring the human condition as well discussing social and political injustices? Could have sworn that's exactly what Roddenberry created it for and why he made the casts multi-cultural. IMO I would think the spirit of Star Trek resides within character that question "Who am I?" and "What is my place within the world?"

Not to mention that the show was better in the first three seasons when all the characters had their fair share of the spotlight. In the later seasons, it was all about Seven, The Doctor and Janeway.
Not really.
There were still certain characters during the first 3 seasons that received more focus over others. Robert Picardo was already getting the best lines from day 1. I wouldn't kinda hope Kate Mulgrew being in the lead role would earn her a bigger part than the rest. I'd think she herself would take issue if she didn't.
Plus, i guess if you're putting Seven's image on magazine covers, T-Shirts, video games, posters, etc. to draw in an audience, wouldn't you wanna give them what they're tuning in for? I mean Paramount is shelling out all that money, I would think they'd want to try and earn it back.
Interesting how economics plays a hand in business, isn't it?
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Old December 2 2012, 06:35 AM   #48
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Well the fact that Kes left isn't what made Voyager better. It's that Braga started to take over, and part of Braga's strengths (yes he actually does have some) is that he made Voyager feel like it was in different part of the galaxy. He was a much more visually driven writer (the show actually felt a little more dangerous, a little more

And more to the point he basically ran (with some suprervision) the staff for seasons 4 through 6 which was the most stable period the show had.

When Voyager started Taylor and Piller worked fairly well together (Berman to settle any disagreements), but then Piller really withdrew to start up Legend. This left Taylor fully in charge of the writing staff, and also took away one of the strengths of the writing staff.

As she took Voyager more towards what types of stories she wanted and got used to being really the sole voice (outside of Berman's occasionally input), Legend failed and Piller returned. Piller had learned from his failure in Legend that Trek's storytelling had fallen behind the times (as its style was very much the same from TNG, and drama's overall were changing in style and tone, while Trek didn't.) Piller pushed for arc based storytelling, of which Taylor was resistant as she felt putting arc material into an episode weakened the primary story. And and both were correct. Storytelling was changing on tv, and Trek wasn't keeping up at all. But its also true that a strong single episode can be weakened by being included in an arc.

While they weren't unfriendly Piller and Taylor's vision of the show no longer matched.

But based on story's and development I would say Piller was getting his way. But then Piller decided to leave Trek and start work again on his own show.

Taylor rewrote the final work of Piller. She then regained basic sole control of Voyager third season (minus of course the 4 hold overs). And it took a while for the writing of Voyage to become consistent (we actually see a strong end to the season with a run of 5 or so episodes).

As for the introduction of Seven an early idea of Braga towards the end of the 3rd season when it was known he would be taking over running the writing staff (with Taylor around basically just to watch over him). There is no question that Braga and the writers started focusing on characters that worked for them. That didn't include Chakotay, Kim or Kes. Now no offense to the actors, but it was clear fairly early in the series run that the writers really didn't find great hooks for some of the primary characters (hardly something new to Trek).

Braga loved seven because she was conflict. It was a serious mistake on the part of Piller, Taylor, Berman and or the studio to basically have the Maquis and Starfleet crew (with a very small number of episodes as exceptions) suddenly become one big happy family.

When we actually saw some tension and serious disagreements between the crews in helped the show, but it was so rare. With Seven it happened far more often.

Now I do think they had about 2 episodes to many devoted to Seven each season, but that extra conflict was a godsend to the show. And no matter how much I liked Kes or the actress that was something she didn't bring to the table. Her's with the exception of Neelix represented the characters that were the easiest to remove from the show.

But I do wish that they could have kept her, even if they downgraded her to a reoccurring special guest star. To use when she was needed.
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Old December 2 2012, 07:22 AM   #49
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

The show definitely got better (though I still enjoyed the early seasons), but whether or not it could have been achieved without Seven is unknown. TNG and DS9 also improved significantly after their first few seasons.
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Old December 2 2012, 01:10 PM   #50
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

exodus wrote: View Post
Bring the capt. her coffee isn't exactly spending time on the bridge.
You must have mixed up the characters Neelix was the one who used to bring the captain coffee. Honestly, Kes did more on the bridge than bringing coffee to the captain. Not to mention that her work in sickbay and the Hydrponics Bay was actually very important for the ship. The Doc needed an assistant and someone had to care for creating food supplies for the crew.

If all that is happening off screen, then we the audience aren't watching her grow and develop thru experiences then are we?
Maybe not, but in that case, blame the writers. They weren't doing their job and that goes for the rest of the development after "Caretaker" too. All of a sudden everything was in the right place.

There were issues with the Maquis up until "Meld". The Maquis in "Learning Curve" and Suder were issues dealing with Maquis not following Starfleet protocol as well as murdering a fellow officer because "He looked at me funny."
Neelix could do much of anything right.
He wasn't a very good guide or cook.
I'm not sure how that equates into settling into his role, he wasn't hired to be a jester.
Suder, Dalby, Henley, Chell and Gerron weren't exactly main characters. We didn't see anything of their development either. Suder was killed off in "Basics" and the others dissapeared (or joined The Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team).

Yeah, she was. In the book "Voyager Companion" it describes Kes (who working title was "Mayfly) as the character the audience and crew would see the journey thru the eyes of. Which means she was to be the focus and we were supposed to experience everything from mainly her point of view.
So why didn't they go for that? Obviously they needed better writers.

And still it is unfair to compare Kes with Seven. Kes was supposed to be a main character, Seven was supposed to be the main character.

So Spock, Data, Odo, Worf and the Doctor weren't?
The spirit of Star Trek isn't the stories of exploring the human condition as well discussing social and political injustices? Could have sworn that's exactly what Roddenberry created it for and why he made the casts multi-cultural. IMO I would think the spirit of Star Trek resides within character that question "Who am I?" and "What is my place within the world?"
Now where did I write that Spock, Data, Odo, Worf and The Doctor weren't representing the spirit of Star Trek? I can't recall that I did write that.

The point is that kes also did represent the spirit of Star Trek with her will to learn and explore. When she was kicked out, Voyager became one of those series where good looks and certain attributes are more essential than the premise and story itself.

Not really.
There were still certain characters during the first 3 seasons that received more focus over others. Robert Picardo was already getting the best lines from day 1. I wouldn't kinda hope Kate Mulgrew being in the lead role would earn her a bigger part than the rest. I'd think she herself would take issue if she didn't.
Plus, i guess if you're putting Seven's image on magazine covers, T-Shirts, video games, posters, etc. to draw in an audience, wouldn't you wanna give them what they're tuning in for? I mean Paramount is shelling out all that money, I would think they'd want to try and earn it back.
Interesting how economics plays a hand in business, isn't it?
I have to dissagree about Picardo getting the best lines from day 1. OK, his comments were funny, I agree on that but he was much of a background character in the first episodes. Janeway and Chakotay did have more screen time but they were supposed to be the main characters. If we look at it, Janeway and Chakotay were Group 1, Paris, Tuvok and Torres were group 2 and Kes, Neelix, Kim and The Doctor were group 3 when it came to screen time in the beginning. But still, all of them did get their fair share of standing in the spotlights in the first season. Later on, The Doctor got more and more screen time but the radical change came in season 4 when it started to be al about Seven, The Doctor and Janeway.

As for economics, that's satan's "gift" to humanity. Everywhere where big money gets in control, all enthusiasm and inspiration is killed off. Just look at the world of popular music which really sucks in those days. Over-produced crap without any feeling or emotion at all, performed by models straight out of some fancy magazines. Where did the music go? And the movie and TV industry are no better. Effects and looks instead of good stories and interesting characters.

In the Voyager case, Seven wasn't supposed to become the focus of everyone's attention, Janeway was. It would have been like shoving Picard aside and make Troi the visual point of TNG.

If the "beeeezneeezzz" needs sex and good looks to sell their merchandise, then I would suggest that they put those sexy, good looking characters in from the start and focus on looks instead of good stories and interesting characters. Then we don't have to see our favorites being kicked out for "not being sexy enough" or being insulted by episodes like "Fury".
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Old December 2 2012, 02:35 PM   #51
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

^^DSN managed to keep up with the times and incorperate arc based story telling, so it isn't fair to say that Trek wasn't keeping up with the times. It might be fairer to say that some Trek shows were better in keeping with the changing times than others.
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Old December 2 2012, 06:00 PM   #52
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Voyager and DS9 were produced by very different people.

It's like comparing the Beatles to the Monkeys.
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Old December 2 2012, 06:35 PM   #53
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
It's like comparing the Beatles to the Monke[e]s.
So, Genevieve Bujold was Pete Best?
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Old December 2 2012, 06:46 PM   #54
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

^^
No, Genevieve Bujold was Stuart Sutcliffe.
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Old December 2 2012, 06:51 PM   #55
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

I thought about saying Stu, but he died.
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Old December 2 2012, 09:49 PM   #56
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
Where did the music go?


People always say this once whatever they thought was hot in their youth is replaced with new hotness.
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Old December 2 2012, 09:59 PM   #57
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Melakon wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
It's like comparing the Beatles to the Monke[e]s.
So, Genevieve Bujold was Pete Best?
Melakon wrote: View Post
I thought about saying Stu, but he died.
Y'all do realize this makes VOY The Beatles and not the Monkees. Complimentary as that may be the Monkees are a better fit.

The Beatles had their own Jesus just like DS9.

And the Monkees were much more hilarious just like VOY.
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Old December 2 2012, 10:01 PM   #58
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Genevieve Bujold was Eric Stoltz.

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Old December 2 2012, 10:12 PM   #59
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

teacake wrote: View Post
Y'all do realize this makes VOY The Beatles and not the Monkees. Complimentary as that may be the Monkees are a better fit.

The Beatles had their own Jesus just like DS9.

And the Monkees were much more hilarious just like VOY.
Yeah, but in his comparisons, Guy listed Voyager and the Beatles first.
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Old December 2 2012, 10:17 PM   #60
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Melakon wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Y'all do realize this makes VOY The Beatles and not the Monkees. Complimentary as that may be the Monkees are a better fit.

The Beatles had their own Jesus just like DS9.

And the Monkees were much more hilarious just like VOY.
Yeah, but in his comparisons, Guy listed Voyager and the Beatles first.
We don't take Guy literally unless it works better that way.
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