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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 1 2012, 05:24 AM   #31
T'Girl
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Re: Insurrection

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
... and the federation can just build a science station in orbit of the planet and study the rings so they can duplicate the radiation ...
Picard: "Let my people look at the technology."
Doughterty: "Our best scientific minds already have. We can't find any other way to do this."
Doughterty was speaking to Picard, both Starfleet officers, "our best ..." means Starfleet science officers. The Federation had already looked at the rings, sometimes you just need to go for the natural resources.

When you finally get pass who hates whom, and who is whose offspring, the ring planet is still a Federation planet, and the particles will still help hundreds of billions of people medically. The Sona's servant races built one collector, they can built another one.

While the Federation Council did halted the Baku relocation (notice they didn't call it a "kidnapping") so that a review could take place. The movie never said the harvesting wouldn't take place. All the reasons to perform the harvest remained intact.

It was never about the planet, and it was never about the Baku/Sona.

So everybody wins.
Right after the Federation harvests the particles.

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Old December 1 2012, 05:34 AM   #32
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Insurrection

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
... and the federation can just build a science station in orbit of the planet and study the rings so they can duplicate the radiation ...
Picard: "Let my people look at the technology."
Doughterty: "Our best scientific minds already have. We can't find any other way to do this."
Doughterty was speaking to Picard, both Starfleet officers, "our best ..." means Starfleet science officers. The Federation had already looked at the rings,
No they looked at the collector they did not study the rings. I would also think that an in depth study of the rings would take a longer time which they have plenty of now that the Son'a want to do the peaceful coexistence thing.
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Old December 1 2012, 06:08 AM   #33
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
... and the federation can just build a science station in orbit of the planet and study the rings so they can duplicate the radiation ...
Picard: "Let my people look at the technology."
Doughterty: "Our best scientific minds already have. We can't find any other way to do this."
Doughterty was speaking to Picard, both Starfleet officers, "our best ..." means Starfleet science officers. The Federation had already looked at the rings,
No they looked at the collector they did not study the rings. I would also think that an in depth study of the rings would take a longer time which they have plenty of now that the Son'a want to do the peaceful coexistence thing.

your "happy ending" of reconciliation involves many Son'a dying before the particles can take effect. Forgot that part? That's okay, the movie does too. The important thing is that the pretty white Baku had their stagnant, selfish community preserved.
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Old December 1 2012, 07:30 PM   #34
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Doughterty was speaking to Picard, both Starfleet officers, "our best ..." means Starfleet science officers. The Federation had already looked at the rings,
No they looked at the collector they did not study the rings. I would also think that an in depth study of the rings would take a longer time which they have plenty of now that the Son'a want to do the peaceful coexistence thing.

your "happy ending" of reconciliation involves many Son'a dying before the particles can take effect.
Meh, just hit a transporter with a a negative space wedgie and put the Son'a through it apparently that will turn them into 12 year olds. I mean its not like they didn't have to figure out how to do that to reverse it.

And the best part is the Son'a will still have all their memories afterwards so they don't lose anything.

The important thing is that the pretty white Baku had their stagnant, selfish community preserved.
You keep saying selfish but when the where they ASKED about it?
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Old December 1 2012, 09:49 PM   #35
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

No they looked at the collector they did not study the rings. I would also think that an in depth study of the rings would take a longer time which they have plenty of now that the Son'a want to do the peaceful coexistence thing.

your "happy ending" of reconciliation involves many Son'a dying before the particles can take effect.
Meh, just hit a transporter with a a negative space wedgie and put the Son'a through it apparently that will turn them into 12 year olds. I mean its not like they didn't have to figure out how to do that to reverse it.

And the best part is the Son'a will still have all their memories afterwards so they don't lose anything.

The important thing is that the pretty white Baku had their stagnant, selfish community preserved.
You keep saying selfish but when the where they ASKED about it?

that point gets brought up a lot, and I have two responses to it:

1. The reason they weren't asked is a script reason, not an in-universe reason. If they were directly asked by Dougherty after the discovery that they weren't primitives, then either they say yes, and the movie ends, or they say no, and then they look like selfish assholes. So to avoid that trap, they aren't directly asked.

2. the Baku knew exactly what they had discovered, that's why they stayed there for three hundred years, didn't leave, and didn't tell anyone else. Clearly, they weren't all that keen on sharing it.



Further, there's so much to this movie that doesn't make any sense. Why didn't the Son'a just tell the truth to the UFP in the first place? Tell them there's a fountain of youth planet in UFP space that the Son'a have equal claim to, and that the inhabitants aren't primitives.


Then the UFP approaches the Baku directly, removes them for their own good, and then compensates them, offering to take them anywhere they'd like.


INS is just so sloppily and poorly written that it's amazing it got filmed.
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Old December 2 2012, 12:37 AM   #36
T'Girl
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
Further, there's so much to this movie that doesn't make any sense.
Why didn't the Son'a just tell the truth to the UFP in the first place?
Apparently the only thing the Sona held back on, is that the Baku and the Sona are the same people.

Tell them there's a fountain of youth planet
It is pretty obvious they did tell the Federation Council this. Why else would the Council agree to the harvesting of the particles, from around a Federation planet?

in UFP space
Which is why the Sona (likely) approached the Federation Council in the first place. The Federation would have realized that the planet belonged to them as soon as they found out the co-ordinates.

that the Son'a have equal claim to ...
In other words zero claim, which is just as much claim as the Baku had to the planet.

and that the inhabitants aren't primitives.
The Federation were always aware that the Baku migrated there from somewhere else. The only person in the movie who as unaware of this initially was Picard.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
... but when the where they ASKED about it?
Exactly what should the Baku have been asked about?

Remember ... IT ... ISN'T ... THE ... BAKU'S ... PLANET.

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Old December 2 2012, 06:31 AM   #37
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Re: Insurrection

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
... but when the where they ASKED about it?
Exactly what should the Baku have been asked about?

Remember ... IT ... ISN'T ... THE ... BAKU'S ... PLANET.)
Sigh, your never going to get that this is the Federation not the Terran Empire are you?
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Old December 2 2012, 06:48 AM   #38
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
2. the Baku knew exactly what they had discovered, that's why they stayed there for three hundred years, didn't leave, and didn't tell anyone else.
Who were they going to tell, the only governments running around then were likely to conquer them or turn them into a puppet state or just kill all of them and take the planet for themselves, why moron would want to deal with those people.

And they seemed to want to be left alone by the rest of the galaxy, hence why they moved to a planet in an area nobody gave a crap about.

And it's not like they would have had the tech to do it since they were doing a space Amish thing so they would have a lack of come as well as spaceships needed to get far enough out to use them.
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Old December 2 2012, 07:17 AM   #39
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Further, there's so much to this movie that doesn't make any sense.
Why didn't the Son'a just tell the truth to the UFP in the first place?
Apparently the only thing the Sona held back on, is that the Baku and the Sona are the same people.

Tell them there's a fountain of youth planet
It is pretty obvious they did tell the Federation Council this. Why else would the Council agree to the harvesting of the particles, from around a Federation planet?

in UFP space
Which is why the Sona (likely) approached the Federation Council in the first place. The Federation would have realized that the planet belonged to them as soon as they found out the co-ordinates.

that the Son'a have equal claim to ...
In other words zero claim, which is just as much claim as the Baku had to the planet.

and that the inhabitants aren't primitives.
The Federation were always aware that the Baku migrated there from somewhere else. The only person in the movie who as unaware of this initially was Picard.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
... but when the where they ASKED about it?
Exactly what should the Baku have been asked about?

Remember ... IT ... ISN'T ... THE ... BAKU'S ... PLANET.


you know, you're right. Dougherty did know from the beginning that the Baku weren't primitives because he knew they didn't come from that planet.

So I guess I say even more... wtf?

WHY did Dougherty bother with this convoluted kidnapping scheme? Why wasn't the matter taken directly to the Baku? The whole movie is built on mountain-sized plot holes.
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Old December 2 2012, 10:50 AM   #40
T'Girl
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
WHY did Dougherty bother with this convoluted kidnapping scheme?
It difficult to think of a reason, the Baku should have been openly approached, the situation laid out and told to get their things together.

But consider this. The Baku were able somehow to force the Sona off the planet, and prevent them from returning later. While living a simple life, the Baku weren't a non-technological people. They were able to diagnose the phase variance in Data's positronic matrix, as being the source of his problem.

While he didn't know of the Sona expulsion, Admiral Dougherty may have been apprehensive as to possible Baku abilities.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Sigh, your never going to get that this is the Federation not the Terran Empire are you?
Fail to see your point. Remember, from the Federation's point of view it's primarily about the medical properties of the particles in the rings. Not the Baku, not the Sona, not even the planet itself.

The whole purpose behind removing the Baku was so that they wouldn't be harmed when the particles were harvested. If it were up to the "Terran Empire" the Baku would have been left where they were and allowed to died from the heat created by the harvesting. The Federation didn't want them harmed, and neither did the Sona.

Moving the Baku to another planet is going to help billions upon billions of people, when are you going to get this?

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Old December 2 2012, 01:48 PM   #41
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post

you know, you're right. Dougherty did know from the beginning that the Baku weren't primitives because he knew they didn't come from that planet.
This was said in the film when?
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Old December 2 2012, 01:56 PM   #42
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Re: Insurrection

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post

you know, you're right. Dougherty did know from the beginning that the Baku weren't primitives because he knew they didn't come from that planet.
This was said in the film when?
Here...

Star Trek: Insurrection wrote:
DOUGHERTY: The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet. They were never meant to be immortal. We'll simply be restoring them to their natural evolution.
Plus, common sense would tell you they didn't evolve on that world. Six hundred people living in a single village, c'mon.
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Old December 2 2012, 02:01 PM   #43
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Insurrection

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post

you know, you're right. Dougherty did know from the beginning that the Baku weren't primitives because he knew they didn't come from that planet.
This was said in the film when?
Here...

Star Trek: Insurrection wrote:
DOUGHERTY: The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet. They were never meant to be immortal. We'll simply be restoring them to their natural evolution.
So after Picard started poking around and found out the Baku were warp capable and that they weren't from the planet.

Yeah that doesn't sound like covering his ass at all
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Old December 2 2012, 02:02 PM   #44
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Re: Insurrection

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

This was said in the film when?
Here...

Star Trek: Insurrection wrote:
DOUGHERTY: The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet. They were never meant to be immortal. We'll simply be restoring them to their natural evolution.
So after Picard started poking around and found out the Baku were warp capable and that they weren't from the planet.

Yeah that doesn't sound like covering his ass at all
Plus, common sense would tell you they didn't evolve on that world. Six hundred people living in a single village, c'mon.

Picard never says anything to Dougherty about them being warp capable.
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Old December 2 2012, 02:05 PM   #45
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Re: Insurrection

I find that "it's not the Ba'ku's planet, and that's why they have no rights" argument fascinating. United States of America, anyone?
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