Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

[st.barthgirl]

Clever...... Is that how transparent i am?

[T'Girl]

Longinus wrote:

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Federation is atheistic, there is no religion.

What do you think of my current signature line? Been using it about a week now.

.

[Longinus]

T'Girl wrote:

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What do you think of my current signature line? Been using it about a week now.

.

I've not seen much Voyager, so I don't know the context. It indeed seems a bit odd for a Vulcan to use word 'prayer', even though this particular message do not seem to have any particularly religious connotations.

In any case, In Roddenberry's vision religion and superstition were things that Federation had evolved beyond, and any Star Trek where that is no longer the case is really not Star Trek any longer to me.

[T'Girl]

You might want to view more of the Star Trek universe prior to declaring it "atheistic." While the subject doesn't come up often, when it does, Federation planets do have religion, faith and spirituality. There never been mention on the show of an atheist member world.

Very obviously Vulcans are people of faith. In the episode Hunters, a message from Tuvok's wife T'Pel included this; "My husband, we have been given the news that you are alive. Your children and I have asked the priests at the temple of Amonak to say prayers for your safe return." In conversation with Neelix, Tuvok stated that the temple of Amonak is one of the most sacred temples on Vulcan.

Being logical people, of course Vulcans have faith. Spock's family is polytheistic, which might be separate from Tuvok's families faith.

Kirk is a monotheist.
Deana Troi believes in the concept of destiny, the finality of events.
Worf and (less so) Torres embrace Klingon spiritualism.

[Longinus]

Well, it is indeed troubling if Vulcans actually pray. That is not a logical thing to do. Another reason to dislike Voyager, I guess.

Of main Starfleet personnel I can remember, closest of having religious faith comes Worf, who seems to genuinely believe things about Klingon afterlife (which probably is shown to actually exist or something in some episode or another.) However, even he doesn't worship any gods.

Gods in Star Trek always prove to be super-aliens/computers/impostors etc, and the Starfleet folks treat them as such, often denouncing them. In 'Who Watches the Watches' Picard is horrified that the Mintakans would revert back to their old superstitious ways, having already evolved past that state. It is clear there that humanity has long ago abandoned any such silliness.

[DonIago]

So DS9 isn't Star Trek?

[Longinus]

DonIago wrote:

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So DS9 isn't Star Trek?

Bajorans can certainly be religious, but not humans or the Federation as a whole.

[TREK_GOD_1]

Longinus wrote:

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Well, it is indeed troubling if Vulcans actually pray. That is not a logical thing to do. Another reason to dislike Voyager, I guess.

What do you think the entire "Search for Spock" ended up meaning? The ritual at the end of STIII was strict spirituality/faith, without a shred of science involved in the act.

In TOS, Kirk, McCoy, Uhura and Scott have all made religious references (Christianity), and not as loose slang/expression, either. No episode was stronger in providing this proof than "Bread and Circuses" where Uhura and Kirk openly acknowledged God/Christ's existence, and this was an episode written by Roddenberry (along with Coon and Kneubuhl) while Roddenberry was involved with the series.

Spiritual belief exists in the ST universe across all eras, which calls into question the motives of various ST books which try to paint the franchise with revisionist brush, as though religious belief was nowhere to be seen in ST since "The Cage."

[Longinus]

TREK_GOD_1 wrote:

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What do you think the entire "Search for Spock" ended up meaning? The ritual at the end of STIII was strict spirituality/faith, without a shred of science involved in the act.

It is just a part of the Vulcan telepathy thing, just like mind melds. It may appear 'spiritual' to humans, but there is really nothing mystical about it.

In TOS, Kirk, McCoy, Uhura and Scott have all made religious references (Christianity), and not as loose slang/expression, either. No episode was stronger in providing this proof than "Bread and Circuses" where Uhura and Kirk openly acknowledged God/Christ's existence, and this was an episode written by Roddenberry (along with Coon and Kneubuhl) while Roddenberry was involved with the series.

It merely acknowledges Christ as an important historical figure. And you don't have to be a Christian to see the moral value of Christ's teachings.

Spiritual belief exists in the ST universe across all eras, which calls into question the motives of various ST books which try to paint the franchise with revisionist brush, as though religious belief was nowhere to be seen in ST since "The Cage."

What does 'spritual belief' mean in this context? Trek people seem to approach all sorts of strange phenomena purely scientifically. They measure particles, not ponder spiritual meanings. Of course they ponder ethical and moral issues often, but that's not being spiritual. There are all sorts of godly superbeings and never they are seen to be anyway spiritually significant. Q for example is seen merely as a powerful alien, even though he appears to be nearly omnipotent, certainly a god compared to the mere humans.

Certainly, lingering effects of Christianity are more visible in TOS as they're in TNG. This has of course it's real world reasons, the time the shows were made and the control Roddenberry had over the production, but it also makes sense from the in-universe perspective. Religions do not vanish overnight, so religious worldview may have been more present (or at least better remembered) in 23th century than it was in 24th. And this also seems highly realistic to me. Religiosity is decreasing. United States is an anomaly amongst developed western nations for being highly religious, and even there atheism is growing. I find it completely plausible that that in few ceturies the religions are regarded as ancient myths and fables. This of course do not mean that people of the future cannot see value in some of these teachings and stories. We don't have to believe that Achilles or King Artur were real people to find them inspiring.

I am not certainly saying that no character in Star Trek can ever express anything that comes even close to religious idealogy, but secular humanism is one of the core ideas of the Federation, and religions should be mostly gone. Having a chaplain in Starfleet would seem about as fitting as Space Marines in Warhammer 40K having sensitivity training courses.

[T'Girl]

Longinus wrote:

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but secular humanism is one of the core ideas of the Federation

While Humanism would seem one of the core principals of the Federation, I would argue that secular humanism isn't. Where are you seeing this supposed secular in addendum to the obvious Humanist? And not all humanists are secular humanists.

General Humanism neither considers or rejects metaphysical issues such as the existence or nonexistence of God, gods, or other supernatural beings, and if a significant potion of the founding members of the Federation possessed cultures with religious and spiritual faiths, secular humanism's particular philosophy might actually be specifically prohibited in the Federation charter.

Well, it is indeed troubling if Vulcans actually pray. That is not a logical thing to do. Another reason to dislike Voyager, I guess.

The Vulcan High Priestess in the fourth movie was named T'Lar, she was the one in the large head dress performed the fal-tor-pan ceremony. The script describes the scene as taking place in a "Vulcan Temple."

When (non-canon) Spock and Saavik married in the novel Vulcan's Heart, High Priestess T'Lar was the one who officiated the wedding.

There was a un-named Vulcan Priestess (you saw the large head dress right?) present at Spock's birth in the fifth movie. She was played by actress Beverly Hart.

While it's unstated, I believe that T'Pau, from Amok Time, was also a Preistess. And if the marriage ceremony had occurred, she would have officiated it. Spock, prior to knowledge of T'Pring's challenge, spoke to Kirk and McCoy of a ceremony.

That is not a logical thing to do

What's illogical about praying?

Certainly, lingering effects of Christianity are more visible in TOS as they're in TNG.

When Miles O'Brein and Keiko Ishikawa were married in TNG, Keiko wore a traditional Shinto wedding dress, the large "hat" gives it away. Not all Human faith is Christianity, in the same episode as the wedding there was a Hindu celebration.

[TREK_GOD_1]

Longinus wrote:

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It is just a part of the Vulcan telepathy thing, just like mind melds. It may appear 'spiritual' to humans, but there is really nothing mystical about it.

One, telepathy has nothing to do with the essence of what was happening to McCoy and what Sarek expected of Kirk. Two, mere telepathy is not on the magnitude of what Sarek described as Kirk denying him "his future"

and--

"He entrusted you...with his very essence--with everything that was not of the body. He asked you to bring him to us. And to bring that which he gave you--his Katra--his living spirit."

This was no mind meld, and contrary to you saying:

It may appear 'spiritual' to humans

It is spiritual to Vulcans. Sarek is clear--the Katra is the living spirit, or as some call it--the soul. Again, there's no getting around it: the Spock-related events of STIII are all about his race's religious beliefs--they know as a matter of fact that he has a soul--his future (presumably beyond physical death), but thanks to the restored body being retrieved, it was restored to his physical being, otherwise it would remain a mindless piece of flesh. Nothing more.

It merely acknowledges Christ as an important historical figure. And you don't have to be a Christian to see the moral value of Christ's teachings.

Uhura specifically refers to the "Son" as the Son of God, a distinct position which is far more than merely referencing a historical figure. She did not water down his identity by reducing him to the random philosopher alone, hence her description.

Now, if Kirk happened to be talking about Lincoln, then that would fall into the catagory of a strict historical reference, as he (Lincoln) was simply a regular man who played a part in a significant chapter of U.S. history.

What does 'spritual belief' mean in this context? Trek people seem to approach all sorts of strange phenomena purely scientifically.

Two examples above were not approcahed and/or considered in that manner. Belief in Spock even having a living spirit--his Katra--and his fate (whether the oriignal "future" Sarek spoke of, or the restoration to his body) had nothing to do with attempting to verify its truth through a scientific process or investigation.

I am not certainly saying that no character in Star Trek can ever express anything that comes even close to religious idealogy, but secular humanism is one of the core ideas of the Federation

Part of the humanity which allows a character such as McCoy to function in fantastic situations comes from his obvious religious upbringing, which guided him to often challenge more secular approaches to situations (seemingly lacking a strict moral compass).

Having a chaplain in Starfleet would seem about as fitting as Space Marines in Warhammer 40K having sensitivity training courses.

Nonsense. Starfleet is not the future's version those engaging in so-called Black Ops, where an anything goes/by any means necessary mentality is the foundation of how the missions are run.

This is one of the reasons Star Wars fans love to criticize Starfleet in any hypothetical conflict with the SW universe's Empire. It is not just about sheer numbers, but what SW fans percieve as Starfleet not being some grim, balls-to-the-walls strike force, but one where higher beliefs would--in theory--prevent them from being effective agianst an enemy who will do anything to anyone, including destroy everything from a family to an entire civilization if its suits their purpose.

[Longinus]

Merry, you mistake some cultural trappings for a religion. I'm an atheist and I celebrate Christmas. It's a tradition but it doesn't have religious meaning for me. I also celebrate Midsummer's Eve (as does everyone in Finland) and it's an old pagan tradition, origin's of which have pretty much been forgotten. Cultures today constantly refer to things about past religions and mythologies that are no longer believed to be actually true.

And Vulcan priests are people who are familiar with Vulcan traditions. There are no Vulcan gods.

And why is praying illogical? Why would you even ask that? It is either supernatural thinking (if you think it actually does something) or a mere gesture (if you don't). Now latter is really not a problem in human sense; saying 'I pray your journey will be safe one' may be just saying that I really wish nothing bad happens to you on your journey. It is still kinda odd thing for a Vulcan to say though.

In any case, people in Trek do not talk about spiritual things. Never do Starfleet personnel speculate whether a random super energy being might be an angel, a god or have any other spiritual meaning. Never do they ponder about afterlife or salvation of an alien species. They approach things from a purely scientific viewpoint.

[Longinus]

TREK_GOD_1 wrote:

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One, telepathy has nothing to do with the essence of what was happening to McCoy and what Sarek expected of Kirk. Two, mere telepathy is not on the magnitude of what Sarek described as Kirk denying him "his future"

and--

"He entrusted you...with his very essence--with everything that was not of the body. He asked you to bring him to us. And to bring that which he gave you--his Katra--his living spirit."

This was no mind meld, and contrary to you saying:

It is spiritual to Vulcans. Sarek is clear--the Katra is the living spirit, or as some call it--the soul. Again, there's no getting around it: the Spock-related events of STIII are all about his race's religious beliefs--they know as a matter of fact that he has a soul--his future (presumably beyond physical death), but thanks to the restored body being retrieved, it was restored to his physical being, otherwise it would remain a mindless piece of flesh. Nothing more.

Katra is a scientific fact for Vulcans. It is the mental pattern of the person that they can transfer via mind meld. Obviously the Vulcans do not wish the knowledge and experiences of the person to be lost once he or she dies. Note how this 'soul' needs to be stored in a living brain (or in a katric arc, I suppose.)

And Spock without his Katra is not really mindless. He is merely a newborn without any memories or experiences. By restoring Katra he becomes Spock we know.

Uhura specifically refers to the "Son" as the Son of God, a distinct position which is far more than merely referencing a historical figure. She did not water down his identity by reducing him to the random philosopher alone, hence her description.

Now, if Kirk happened to be talking about Lincoln, then that would fall into the catagory of a strict historical reference, as he (Lincoln) was simply a regular man who played a part in a significant chapter of U.S. history.

'Son' is what the space Romans called him, and it is certainly known historical fact that Christ was called 'Son of God' by his followers. It is no way an indication that Uhura herself presumed Christ to be an actual son of God.

You seem to assume that if people acknowledge that someone is an important historical figure and moral and religious leader, they also acknowledge that the supernatural part is true. That just doesn't follow.

Two examples above were not approcahed and/or considered in that manner. Belief in Spock even having a living spirit--his Katra--and his fate (whether the oriignal "future" Sarek spoke of, or the restoration to his body) had nothing to do with attempting to verify its truth through a scientific process or investigation.

Sarek already knows how Katra functions. Vulcans have verified it centuries ago.

Part of the humanity which allows a character such as McCoy to function in fantastic situations comes from his obvious religious upbringing, which guided him to often challenge more secular approaches to situations (seemingly lacking a strict moral compass).

I'm not saying that you're wrong. It's a long time I've watched TOS, but what leads you conclude that McCoy is particularly religious?

Nonsense. Starfleet is not the future's version those engaging in so-called Black Ops, where an anything goes/by any means necessary mentality is the foundation of how the missions are run.

This is one of the reasons Star Wars fans love to criticize Starfleet in any hypothetical conflict with the SW universe's Empire. It is not just about sheer numbers, but what SW fans percieve as Starfleet not being some grim, balls-to-the-walls strike force, but one where higher beliefs would--in theory--prevent them from being effective agianst an enemy who will do anything to anyone, including destroy everything from a family to an entire civilization if its suits their purpose.

Yes, that's called having morals. No religion is involved.

[T'Girl]

Longinus wrote:

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It is no way an indication that Uhura herself presumed Christ to be an actual son of God.

It's a long time I've watched TOS, but what leads you conclude that McCoy is particularly religious?

In the last scene of Bread And Circuses, where Uhura and McCoy are speaking on he bridge , there is joy in Uhura voice, and a matter of fact'ness in McCoy. There no sign that McCoy is employing sarcasm or is reciting a line out of a history book. That they are both persons of faith come from the tone of their voices, and the look on Uhura's face.

Uhura: "Don't you understand? It's not the sun up in the sky. It's the Son of God."
Kirk: "Caesar and Christ. They had them both. And the word is spreading only now."
McCoy: "A philosophy of total love and total brotherhood."

Merry, you mistake some cultural trappings for a religion.

One of those trappings being a "Vulcan Temple." Commander Tuvok referred to a Vulcan temple as being "sacred." Vulcan family's travel to the temples so that prayer can be said.

And Vulcan priests are people who are familiar with Vulcan traditions. There are no Vulcan gods.

In the (non-canon) novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Vulcans, in addition to the senses possessed by Humans, have a sense that give them the ability to perceive a oneness with The All, the universe's creative force, or God. The novelization was written by Gene Roddenberry.

One of the prime creators of Star Trek says that Vulcan do in fact have relationship with God.

And why is praying illogical? Why would you even ask that?

Why would it be illogical for Vulcans (or anyone) to pray? Vulcan know that the self survives the mortal flesh, and they (like many of us) can personal perceive God.

[Longinus]

Merry Christmas wrote:

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In the last scene of Bread And Circuses, where Uhura and McCoy are speaking on he bridge , there is joy in Uhura voice, and a matter of fact'ness in McCoy. There no sign that McCoy is employing sarcasm or is reciting a line out of a history book. That they are both persons of faith come from the tone of their voices, and the look on Uhura's face.

Uhura: "Don't you understand? It's not the sun up in the sky. It's the Son of God."
Kirk: "Caesar and Christ. They had them both. And the word is spreading only now."
McCoy: "A philosophy of total love and total brotherhood."

Yes, I watched that scene. They obviously think that Christ's teachings will improve that planet. No religious element required.

One of those trappings being a "Vulcan Temple." Commander Tuvok referred to a Vulcan temple as being "sacred." Vulcan family's travel to the temples so that prayer can be said.

I would not pay too much attention to words like 'temple' or 'priest', but I already sy it is odd for Vulcans to pray.

In the (non-canon) novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Vulcans, in addition to the senses possessed by Humans, have a sense that give them the ability to perceive a oneness with The All, the universe's creative force, or God. The novelization was written by Gene Roddenberry.

I haven't read it. If that's true it is indeed odd, and goes against what he has said about world of Star Trek and his ideas about religion. Could anyone provide the exact quote?

Why would it be illogical for Vulcans (or anyone) to pray? Vulcan know that the self survives the mortal flesh, and they (like many of us) can personal perceive God.

What would be the purpose of the prayer? It does nothing.

And Katra is physical thing, it cannot survive without a physical container such as brain or katra arch. Vulcans preserve their Katras because they know there is no existence beyond this physical world.


Oh, and apparently network bosses pressuret Roddenberry to include a chaplain in TOS. He adamantly refused.