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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old December 1 2012, 06:22 AM   #1156
Joe_Atari
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Harvey wrote: View Post
Joe_Atari wrote: View Post
Why is it so inconceivable that CBS would later release a "re-remastered" S2 set sometime down the road? There's ample recent precedent for studios remastering botched BD releases (from multiple studios: The Fifth Element, Gladiator, The French Connection, and Patton come to mind).
Motion pictures are cheaper to remaster than an entire season of television -- two hours of material versus ten in this case. Moreover, none of the releases you've listed involved re-compositing of visual effects -- just going back to the film elements and striking an improved transfer.
Agreed, but as I mentioned, CBS would not have to start from scratch. In the case of CBS-D the infrastructure for the project is already in place from S1 and S3 (and hopefully further seasons), much of which is unique to this project, DS9, and VOY. The elements for S2 have been scanned and the shot lists have been compiled. The audio seems fine this time around. That leaves replacing only the problematic HTV visual material.

From what I can gather, the flaws in HTV's work seem to fall into 4 main categories:

1. Misaligned motion control passes and visible matte lines
2. Lighting and shading mismatches on miniature elements
3. Poor-quality / low-res starfields and other digital elements (mainly planets, but including that horrid probe launch CG Enterprise from "Where Silence Has Lease")
4. Excessive DNR, mainly in miniature shots

From what I understand the live-action VFX comps (hand phasers, viewscreens, etc.) for S2 are generally well done (with the exception of one dodgy bluescreen window shot from "The Measure of a Man" mentioned earlier). So assuming there are not excessive DNR issues with the live-action footage (haven't read about any yet), that pretty much leaves the space / ship shots (and not ALL of them by any means either). Someone would have to chime in with how many minutes of the total running time of S2 (15 hours or so) are taken up by such shots, but I'm guessing it's not a lot, and there's lots of repetition. Next, consider how many of those flawed elements could be quickly replaced by elements already done better by CBS-D. Roughly how many minutes would we be talking about? How much work? Certainly nothing like completely recompositing the entire season, or even a two hour feature with extensive VFX. For the sake of brevity I'm oversimplifying a bit (there may be complications from procedural, maybe even software / equipment differences between CBS-D and HTV for example), but that's essentially it.

In any case, I was really referring to the business considerations, which as I'm sure you know are quite different from a feature to a television project and this one in particular. The feature films I mentioned were examples of studios remastering product that they really didn't have to. The benefit to the studios from re-releasing these titles was to sell additional units and generate some positive press in the process (and I see only thumbs up when a studio does this sort of thing; those that care are just glad to have an improved product and ultimately couldn't care less about a recall are trade-in program). The primary market for the TNG-R project is TV syndication. As has been mentioned many times, the revenues from the BD release are gravy; the real money will come from selling TNG in HD in syndication for years to come.

I think CBS has learned (or will soon learn) its lesson from its experience with HTV and will better vet the post houses that are used going forward, hopefully choosing ones with VFX experience. Lost BD sales aside, I don't think the bosses want 6 great looking seasons of their "flagship" Trek series (thanks Marina! ) and one substandard one. It is really in their best business interests that the overall package look as good as is practical. I also know for a fact that there are some "movie people" at Fox that dictated the re-releases of "The French Connection" and "Patton", stating in the case of the latter that they learned their lesson on the excessive application of DNR and that it would not happen again; the re-release confirms this (and I hope they do the same for Predator!). I'd like to think there are some of these same type of people at CBS; if not we might be watching SD upconverts instead of a completely recomposited series. Of course I'm glad we're not!

The question really is, would goodwill, positive press, concern for quality, pride in the franchise, and lastly recovered lost BD sales (starting with my own) outweigh the variable costs involved in recompositing / replacing the xx minutes of S2 that really need it. I think it might, but the bosses may need some prodding. By no means do I think it will happen next week or even next year, but my hope is that they revise the overly ambitious TNG-R release schedule to allow CBS-D to do the whole run (and allow for greater consistency from season to season), or hire outside (and even CBS-D is outside really; "in-house" is a misnomer since they're their own profit center, etc.) facilities that are a better fit for the project. Oh yeah, hold the project managers accountable for quality control and replace them if necessary. With all due respect, if that's the Okudas, then so be it.

Harvey wrote: View Post
CBS might revisit this season down the road, but it wouldn't be a cheap and easy proposition. (Not to mention, it would alienate a lot of fans who spent money on an inferior product).
If it happens I definitely see it happening during some sort of hiatus for the facility in question. For example, say CBS-D does S7, perhaps they could squeeze an S2 redo between that and a possible DS9-R project. Also, as I said higher-quality re-releases are typically well-received; whether the re-release is done with a recall, mail-in replacement, trade-in, or full repurchase would depend on the timing. And at the risk of incurring the wrath of the "it's good enough" crowd, it just sends completely the wrong message to spend money on an inferior product to begin with. BillJ mentioned he was unhappy with what he's seen but he's buying S2 to "support the project"; I simply cannot understand this. Even if the project needed our "support" (it doesn't), it's happening, again, for business reasons. Especially given the circumstances with HTV there's no way CBS would abandon the project if S2s sales suffered. Of course, if you're happy with S2 as it is now, I respect your opinion; by all means buy it and enjoy it. S2 is one of my favorite seasons of TNG (it and S1 have a special place with me) and the extras do look amazing (kudos to Burnett and his team on those), so it will pain me to pass on this release. Instead I'll be picking up the TOS score box set on Monday (at over 3 times the price of S2 but that's where my Trek money's going next week). Why on earth anyone would buy S2 if they know they're not going to be happy with it completely eludes me. For myself, I'll buy S2 when they re-remaster it, even if it's months or years down the road. I've waited this long, right? If it's never done I'll survive, knowing I didn't support a shoddy product.

Last edited by Joe_Atari; December 1 2012 at 08:01 AM.
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Old December 1 2012, 06:23 AM   #1157
jimbotron
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Phily B, would you mind taking a screenshot of this:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...eofaman062.jpg

It can be approximate. Just any shot that has Picard/Maddox with the space station in the background. Those shots are heavily DNRed.
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Old December 1 2012, 06:44 AM   #1158
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Mott the barber wrote: View Post

However, and I completely agree with Tomalok...the shipmitself was way too washed out and bright, especially when compared to s1 and the s3 trailer. The over bright ship added to the effect of making the ship seem like it was pasted on top as opposed tom within the scene in the compositing. Honestly, if they would just match the ship lighting to s1, I really wouldn't have noticed any of the other stuff in motion, and I highly doubt most of you would have either.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one to notice this. If anyone can do a screencap comparison of just an exterior shot of the Enterprise between the two seasons, that might help show what I mean here. I think the best comparison might be the shot from 11001001 with the Enterprise heading towards Spacedock, to the shot of the Enterprise firing at the Borg ship in Q Who. The only comparison I got last night was noticing how much more darker (In a clear sense of the term) things looked on the season 3 trailer.

Hell, if there is one thing I have noticed about the Q who shot is it seems like HTV in their "remastering" got the "color" all wrong. I wanted the show in HD, but I still wanted the Borg tractor beam to be bright green. If there was one thing I noticed in the screenshot posted above (And the problem people should be having with it) it is the color is all wrong.

I think I've decided while everyone else is looking at the visual effects and calling out HTV on them, I'm going to call them out on getting the colors wrong. That's not keeping with the same intent as the original.
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Old December 1 2012, 07:15 AM   #1159
trekker670
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Mott the barber wrote: View Post
I'd have to agree with you. Look guys, I saw the screening last night and I like to think I have a pretty good eye for some of this stuff. But youre really not going to notice a 2 second flyby shot of the ship and the misaligned composite. I was watching on a giant screen and did not see it even as I was staring at the ship crawl across the screen.
I agree, with the exception of when the lighting pass "floats" around on the ship. There was at least one shot that I noticed where the Enterprise was moving left to right (I believe it was in MoaM) and the light pass followed it, but was moving at a different rate causing the glow from the nacelles to move around on the ship (sometimes ahead halfway up the bussard collectors, sometimes behind into the body of the nacelle)
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Old December 1 2012, 12:34 PM   #1160
Salinga
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
If anyone can do a screencap comparison of just an exterior shot of the Enterprise between the two seasons, that might help show what I mean here.
Like these?

Season 1: http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...acy_hd_386.jpg
Season 2: http://tng.trekcore.com/bluray/image...tgomery_hd.jpg
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Old December 1 2012, 12:37 PM   #1161
Salinga
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Really, it doesn't bother me too much. It's pretty minor (and even at times major) niggling things like the window lights not matching the ports on the model, etc. But, overall, I think it looks a heck of a lot better than the SD, VHS-quality DVD versions do. I think I'll survive with some misplaced widow lights and part of a missing tractor beam.
Well, and opinions like these are the reasons why mediocre work like the HD transfer of Season 2 passes the quality test and is released on the marked

1. "This will be final. Making it better is too expensive."
2. "They dont mind and will buy it anyway." (they = the consumers)
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Old December 1 2012, 01:50 PM   #1162
NewHorizon
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Salinga wrote: View Post
Well, and opinions like these are the reasons why mediocre work like the HD transfer of Season 2 passes the quality test and is released on the marked
But Mr. Okuda told me on twitter that the S2 VFX quality was excellent, so it must be true, right?

I know he probably didn't want to say anything critical about work his old friends were involved with..and I respect that, but man...excellent is way off the mark.
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Old December 1 2012, 02:07 PM   #1163
Salinga
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

NewHorizon wrote: View Post
But Mr. Okuda told me on twitter that the S2 VFX quality was excellent, so it must be true, right?
Opinions are often very closely related to interests - social, cultural and financial interests. Often an opinion doesnt state the truth, it just states the interests of a person and the interests of the group the person is associated with and needs to stay associated with.
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Old December 1 2012, 04:29 PM   #1164
Warp Coil
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

NewHorizon wrote: View Post
Salinga wrote: View Post
Well, and opinions like these are the reasons why mediocre work like the HD transfer of Season 2 passes the quality test and is released on the marked
But Mr. Okuda told me on twitter that the S2 VFX quality was excellent, so it must be true, right?

I know he probably didn't want to say anything critical about work his old friends were involved with..and I respect that, but man...excellent is way off the mark.
The Okudas want this project to be successful, and they are currently still employed by CBS to oversee the rest of the project. They certainly aren't going to say something negative about the quality of the product because they want people to go out and buy it. They want the fans to enjoy it. I'm sure the Okudas respect Dan Curry and aren't going to say anything bad about him.

CBS isn't going to say anything negative about the work Curry and HTV have done, either, for the very same reasons. Pulling HTV off of the project was done quietly and with no comment. We can read between the lines but I doubt anyone will go on record to say that the quality of season 2 sucks. It's obvious that CBS learned a lesson with this project, and they are going to strive to ensure that there will be greater consistency moving forward. That's all we can hope for at this point.
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Old December 1 2012, 04:41 PM   #1165
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

If CBS ensures the quality and consistency of the remaining seasons, and indeed, DS9 and VOY's probable/possible HD releases in the future - I can see TNG season 2 getting the dubious honour of being forever labelled (from a VFX perspective) as the "season that sucked" or some such pithy phrase.
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Old December 1 2012, 04:48 PM   #1166
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Let's hope so.

I hate to say it, but if it takes season 2 of TNG to be a big learning experience for them so that 3-7 and DS9 don't get effed up, so be it.
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Old December 1 2012, 05:00 PM   #1167
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Tosk wrote: View Post
Let's hope so.

I hate to say it, but if it takes season 2 of TNG to be a big learning experience for them so that 3-7 and DS9 don't get effed up, so be it.
Would you feel the same way if season two was your favorite season of Modern Trek?
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Old December 1 2012, 05:13 PM   #1168
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Of course not. I didn't choose for this season to get messed up y'know. And there's no guarantee other seasons won't get screwed up too. But it's too depressing to consider that just now. I haven't gotten over this disappointment yet.

My fallback continues to be, at least it's still better than the DVDs. Hugely so.
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Old December 1 2012, 05:31 PM   #1169
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Well, it was a tough decision, but I canceled my preorder yesterday before Amazon shipped it. I'll definitely be buying season three.
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Old December 1 2012, 05:57 PM   #1170
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Re: Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Well, after much thought I just cancelled my order through Amazon. I'll likely still purchase it, but I'll wait to see if Best Buy or another retailer offers it cheaper than the $87 it was going to cost through Amazon with release-day delivery. I thought I heard BB was going to have it for $65 next week.
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