Insurrection

[T'Girl]

los2188 wrote:

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If the Ba'ku were so...enlightened and nice, for lack of better words, why wouldn't they just share the planet with others for the purpose of helping others?

Or better still, abandon the planet so the particles could be collected and distributed across Sona and Federation space. That way people wouldn't have to travel to the ring planet, the rings would travel to them.

Sandoval wrote:

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They were selfish.

Very much so.

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Wait they were asked at some point?

Anij: "There's an unusual metaphasic radiation coming from the planet's rings. It continuously regenerates our genetic structure."

Why would it be necessary to ask them, they knew exactly what the rings did. When Picard explain what the Federation and the Sona planned, the Baku should have immediately said: "The particles will help hundreds of billions of people, as they helped us? How soon can you beam us up?

But they didn't ... selfish assholes.

When did this happen in the film?

Picard's meeting with Anij occurred about one third of the way through the movie.

All I remember is the typical corrupt admiral who ...

Who was following the instructions of the Federation Council.

Who were doing their jobs of looking after the best interests of the hundreds of billions of people in the 150 member Federation, and not just looking at 600 people living in one valley, on one Federation planet.

the bad guy in these situations

Really the Baku were the bad guys. Nice looking blonde hippie bad guys.

planning to kidnap the natives and never let them know what was going on.

While the children seen in the movie were "natives," the adult Baku weren't. They were migrants.

Given that it was a Federation planet, nothing should have been kept secret, the Baku should have been simply evicted.

[sonak]

T'Girl wrote:

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Or better still, abandon the planet so the particles could be collected and distributed across Sona and Federation space. That way people wouldn't have to travel to the ring planet, the rings would travel to them.

Very much so.

Anij: "There's an unusual metaphasic radiation coming from the planet's rings. It continuously regenerates our genetic structure."

Why would it be necessary to ask them, they knew exactly what the rings did. When Picard explain what the Federation and the Sona planned, the Baku should have immediately said: "The particles will help hundreds of billions of people, as they helped us? How soon can you beam us up?

But they didn't ... selfish assholes.

Picard's meeting with Anij occurred about one third of the way through the movie.

Who was following the instructions of the Federation Council.

Who were doing their jobs of looking after the best interests of the hundreds of billions of people in the 150 member Federation, and not just looking at 600 people living in one valley, on one Federation planet.

Really the Baku were the bad guys. Nice looking blonde hippie bad guys.

While the children seen in the movie were "natives," the adult Baku weren't. They were migrants.

Given that it was a Federation planet, nothing should have been kept secret, the Baku should have been simply evicted.

that was awesome.

[Hartzilla2007]

sonak wrote:

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that was awesome.

Its actually bulls@#t.

Diplomacy doesn't work that way unless your Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, The British Empire, or any other imperialist asshole.

You don't just march into an area and kick people out of it because you want it. And frankly I find it ironic Star Trek fans want the Federation to act like their enemies, while acting like this is morally superior.

[sonak]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Its actually bulls@#t.

Diplomacy doesn't work that way unless your Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, The British Empire, or any other imperialist asshole.

You don't just march into an area and kick people out of it because you want it. And frankly I find it ironic Star Trek fans want the Federation to act like their enemies, while acting like this is morally superior.

actually it works that way a lot. Resettlements happen all of the time. Borders change constantly. As a student of history, I find it amusing when people claim that there's something inviolable about land rights or land claims, when they actually shift all the time. And for much LESS good reasons than there were to do so here.


Heck, Picard was willing to do a forceable relocation in "journey's end" just for a peace treaty that wasn't likely to last. But he's not willing to do it here to give medical benefits to billions.(and I know the difference is that one group was officially citizens, but that's NOT the basis Picard used in that episode, he actually used "greater good" as the justification.)


Again, the Baku are not native to the planet, they are in UFP territory, and the Son'a have as much right to the planet as the Baku.

There really is no reason to argue against removing the Baku unless you hold to the absurd position that "finders keepers" is somehow an absolute principle and that property rights/land rights can't be violated even for a vastly greater good. In short, an absurd position.

[Hartzilla2007]

sonak wrote:

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actually it works that way a lot. Resettlements happen all of the time. Borders change constantly.

How many involved kidnapping?

I also seem to recall in some cases the people doing so WERE KICKED OUT!

As a student of history, I find it amusing when people claim that there's something inviolable about land rights or land claims,

Well I guess sovereignty is a total crock then, so India should just go beg the British to come back and Poland and everywhere else the Nazis took over should just go crawling back to Germany.

Oh and I guess Africa should be just so grateful to Europe too

when they actually shift all the time. And for much LESS good reasons than there were to do so here.

Gee, that a good justification, less moral people did so you should do it too.

Heck, Picard was willing to do a forceable relocation in "journey's end" just for a peace treaty that wasn't likely to last. But he's not willing to do it here to give medical benefits to billions.(and I know the difference is that one group was officially citizens, but that's NOT the basis Picard used in that episode, he actually used "greater good" as the justification.)

So the MAJOR difference that makes the federation look like an imperialistic jackass should be ignored

Again, the Baku are not native to the planet, they are in UFP territory,

You mean the power that didn't even exist yet when the Baku moved there.

I guess the Baku should have checked with the Vulcan, Andorians, and Tellerites (who were probably busy shooting at each other), or the humans (who would probably put them on a show trial and then have their drugged soldiers gun them down or whatever the usual verdict in the setting Q was simulating in Encounter at Farpoint called for) before moving into an area that was outside of their spheres of influence back then.

and the Son'a have as much right to the planet as the Baku.

Which is between the Son'a and Baku, which is why crazy admiral guy called the whole thing off. Hell the federation didn't even know about that.

At first they just seemed to think they were teaming up with a thuggish empire they may or may not have been at war with to relocate a pre-warp culture so they can devastate the planet they were living on.

Not exactly what the good guys do in Star Trek is it, Especially what with the whole Prime Directive thing that tends to be designed TO PREVENT THAT!

There really is no reason to argue against removing the Baku unless you hold to the absurd position that "finders keepers" is somehow an absolute principle and that property rights/land rights can't be violated even for a vastly greater good. In short, an absurd position.

And yet if the government takes your stuff they kind of have to pay for it. And they also HAVE TO LET YOU KNOW THEY ARE DOING IT!

And no just finding out a foreign government whose first encounter with you is catching them pretty much spying on you then plans to kidnap you DOESN'T COUNT.

And no the federation probably wasn't going to share any of the particles with the Baku what with the way the kidnapping was presented and the whole restoring their natural course of evolution or whatever admiral wants to play god was going on about.

and no you don't get to ignore the point because it makes the side you support look bad.

[BillJ]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Which is between the Son'a and Baku, which is why crazy admiral guy called the whole thing off. Hell the federation didn't even know about that.

So if the S'ona wanted to exterminate the Ba'ku and take the metaphasic radiation, that would be cool in your world?

Like I've said a hundred times before in these threads, the Federation's actions likely prevented the Ba'ku from being exterminated.

[Hartzilla2007]

BillJ wrote:

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Like I've said a hundred times before in these threads, the Federation's actions likely prevented the Ba'ku from being exterminated.

So your saying Picard did a good thing seeing as the Son'a were planing to do that near the end of the film.

[BillJ]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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So your saying Picard did a good thing seeing as the Son'a were planing to do that near the end of the film.

Of course he did a good thing. But you're saying he did a bad thing because you said it should be between the S'ona and the Ba'ku. By your application of property rights the Federation had no business to be there. The Ba'ku never asked for Federation intervention, one way or the other.

However, Picard should've never been there to begin with. He should've followed the orders he was given by Starfleet and Dougherty to go to the Goran system before he knew anything was going on in the Briar Patch.

[Hartzilla2007]

BillJ wrote:

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Of course he did a good thing. But you're saying he did a bad thing because you said it should be between the S'ona and the Ba'ku.

I'm not saying he did a bad thing, besides depending on when the film takes place the Son'a would have probably been shot on site what with the whole at war thing.

wever, Picard should've never been there to begin with. He should've followed the orders he was given by Starfleet and Dougherty to go to the Goran system before he knew anything was going on in the Briar Patch.

and Data gets court-martialed YAY!

Or they just ignore somebody shooting him for no reason also YAY!

Seriously sometimes I wonder if some people watched a different movie than I did.

[BillJ]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Or they just ignore somebody shooting him for no reason also YAY!

Seriously sometimes I wonder if some people watched a different movie than I did.

They didn't know he had been shot. I'm wondering what movie you've been watching? They didn't know he had been shot until they had recovered him and brought him aboard the Enterprise for inspection and repair.

If the sector wasn't contested, the Federation likely would've had little to nothing in the way of a presence there. The S'ona could've came in and simply beamed the Ba'ku up or cooked them from orbit with the Collector with the Federation/Starfleet being none the wiser.

[Vasquez Rocks]

BillJ wrote:

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So if the S'ona wanted to exterminate the Ba'ku and take the metaphasic radiation, that would be cool in your world?

Like I've said a hundred times before in these threads, the Federation's actions likely prevented the Ba'ku from being exterminated.

Not all the Son'a were blind followers of Rua'fo. Gallatin for one wasn't too happy with him when he wanted to exterminate them.

"Moving them is one thing. Killing them all?!"

There probably were more Son'a who felt this way. Some of the Ba'ku were their parents afterall.

[T'Girl]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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to relocate a pre-warp culture

How in hell are the Baku a "pre-warp culture?" They migrated through interstellar space to reach that planet in the first place. And years later when they kicked the Sona off the planet, how do you think the Sona left? Statements by the Baku indicate that they retain knowledge of technology, even if they don't currently employ it.

You don't just march into an area and kick people out of it because you want it.

But you can if the area is yours. Even if the area wasn't your when the people arrived, and the area changed hands multiple times, once it's yours, you can evict the people off of it.

Which should have been done openly with the Baku.

while acting like this is morally superior.

Which it is.

Try this. I own a house, you moved in prior to my acquiring it. Destroying the house will help hundreds of billions of people medically. I move you out so those hundreds of billions of people can be helped. Again it was never your house, you (and 600 of your friends) just moved in one day. If I leave you there, you will be harmed in the process of helping hundreds of billions of people.

Yes, morally superior.

sonak wrote:

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Borders change constantly.

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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You mean the power that didn't even exist yet when the Baku moved there.

Borders do change over time. During ENT the area belonged to the Romulans, the Federation didn't yet exist. By TOS the area was owned by the Klingons, it had changed hands. By DS9 it was Federation territory.

And no just finding out a foreign government whose first encounter with you is catching them pretty much spying on you then plans to kidnap you DOESN'T COUNT.

First off, the Federation isn't a foreign government, it the government of the planet you're currently standing on.

The Baku should have been openly moved, without subterfuge.

And no the federation probably wasn't going to share any of the particles with the Baku

My read is that the Baku would have been move to a different Federation planet, established there, and would have had the same access to the harvested particles as all the other people in the Federation.

So your saying Picard did a good thing seeing as the Son'a were planing to do that near the end of the film.

If the Sona wished to kill the Baku, why didn't they?

Face it Hartzilla2007, the Sona were going out of their way not to kill the Baku, even after the collector was activated, the movie made clear that there would have been multiple hours to remove the remaining Baku from the planet before condition became fatal.

The Enterprise could have simply beamed them up.

[Hartzilla2007]

BillJ wrote:

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They didn't know he had been shot. I'm wondering what movie you've been watching? They didn't know he had been shot until they had recovered him and brought him aboard the Enterprise for inspection and repair.

And seeing Dougherty didn't seem to mind them poking around until they found the ship, your point is?

Besides why is everyone care about whether Picard shouldn't have gotten involved or not, everything worked out in the end.

The Son'a and Baku are trying to get along and the federation can just build a science station in orbit of the planet and study the rings so they can duplicate the radiation, and the Baku get to keep their planet. So everybody wins.

[BillJ]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Besides why is everyone care about whether Picard shouldn't have gotten involved or not, everything worked out in the end.

Because it's lazy storytelling. The entire movie depends on Picard constantly violating orders and when you combine lazy storytelling with stupidity, you have a pretty poor movie. Which is exactly what Insurrection is.

I've had the Blu-ray set for a year now and I still haven't watched Insurrection, I haven't even cracked open the its case.

[Hartzilla2007]

BillJ wrote:

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Because it's lazy storytelling. The entire movie depends on Picard constantly violating orders and when you combine lazy storytelling with stupidity, you have a pretty poor movie. Which is exactly what Insurrection is.

I've had the Blu-ray set for a year now and I still haven't watched Insurrection, I haven't even cracked open the its case.

Meh, just do what I do and ignore the finished version and track down the original treatment thingy Piller did, that seemed like it would have been a way better movie.