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Old November 28 2012, 12:58 AM   #31
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
But that's exactly what will happen when health care is "free". There will eventually not be enough money to pay for everything for everyone, so someone will have to decide who gets what, and how much of it. That someone will be the bureaucracy created by the new system.

It will cost a fortune to run, it will be unbelievably inefficient, and will be accountable to no one but itself.

Deny it all you want, but just watch.
Someone already decides who gets what and how much of it: the private insurance companies. They can refuse to insure people with pre-existing conditions, deny claims for care that the patient's doctor orders, and so on.
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Old November 28 2012, 01:21 AM   #32
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Kelthaz wrote: View Post
propita wrote: View Post
While Hubby and I are Dems, we agree with Romney on 25% (not 47%). Hubby's seeing a lot of this on the medical side. My attorney friends tell me about it on the legal side. Yes, there are a lot of deserving people needing medical and legal help who can't pay for it, but there's also a good number who either don't deserve it or are wrongfully far more demanding than anyone working their ass off to pay for it themselves.
Who the hell are you to decide who deserves life-saving medical treatment and who doesn't? Your child at home gets a little mouthy, so you cut off her insulin until she behaves?
For real. I do not want someone arbitrarily deciding who "deserves" medical care and who doesn't.
ATimson wrote: View Post
Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Who the hell are you to decide who deserves life-saving medical treatment and who doesn't?
The person who gets stuck with the bill?
I should be clearer, I'm not talking about life-saving care, or even regular preventive care for children OR adults. I'm talking about the abusers.

Locally, there's two homeless guys who call for ambulance rides averaging twice a day. And half the time, they leave the hospital soon after arrival because they didn't want to wait more than five minutes. I'm not joking. Big interview in the local paper, direct quotes of them being irate that people were not kowtowing to their wants. We're talking literally hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, plus the unavailability of the ambulance for others who are actually having emergencies.

Hubby was on call this past weekend. A parent called him--child receiving free medical care and the formula she opened was the wrong one. Okay, she had enough for the weekend, so fix it Monday, right? No! She wanted it fixed NOW, regardless of the costs to the hospital (read CA taxpayers) to get both a pharmacist into the office and the deliveryman on a Sunday (this department is closed weekends, but with people on call for emergencies). True, there was a delivery error (long before Hubby started working there), but she signed for the item without checking. The delivery person is delivering, not checking prescriptions--not qualified. Had she checked, as she was supposed to, there would have been no false-emergency. This was formula with a few nutritional additives, not medication.

These the kinds of attitude that are wrong. Not the "I'm out of insulin" or "my child just broke their arm and needs help now" things, or the once-a-year well-child checkup which can catch problems early.
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Old November 29 2012, 05:27 AM   #33
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
What if you are foreigner and there is an emergency?
Roger Wilco wrote: View Post
Surely they get a cast for a broken leg or something, but do they get chemo? Do they get insuline, etc.?
To both questions: Hospitals in the US [those defined as Regional Medical Centers, but not private hospitals] are required to provide "life-saving treatment" and "stabilizing care" to those whose lives would be at risk without such care. In short, if you are dying they will save your life... this means making sure you are stable enough to leave the hospital. This policy is posted at every Emergency Room I have seen.
This does NOT mean you will not be billed for these services. Several hospitals now have "charity care" / "financial assistance" programs which are based upon income and ability to pay for care and treatment.
Example: You will get X-rays and a cast for a broken bone... and a note telling you to follow up with your own doctor. You may get a prescription for pain or anti-biotic, but it is up to you to get it filled elsewhere.
Example: You are in diabetic shock. The ER will give you insulin/stabilize your blood sugar levels. Once it is normal again, you will be sent home with prescription/advice to follow up with your own doctor.

I hope this helps answer your questions.
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Kelthaz wrote: View Post
propita wrote: View Post
While Hubby and I are Dems, we agree with Romney on 25% (not 47%). Hubby's seeing a lot of this on the medical side. My attorney friends tell me about it on the legal side. Yes, there are a lot of deserving people needing medical and legal help who can't pay for it, but there's also a good number who either don't deserve it or are wrongfully far more demanding than anyone working their ass off to pay for it themselves.
Who the hell are you to decide who deserves life-saving medical treatment and who doesn't? Your child at home gets a little mouthy, so you cut off her insulin until she behaves?
For real. I do not want someone arbitrarily deciding who "deserves" medical care and who doesn't.
I agree.
I also agree with those who said President Obama did not have the support to pass a "single payor" system. He passed what he could. I remember when First Lady Hillary Clinton championed Universal Healthcare, but was unable to get it passed by Congress.
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Old November 29 2012, 02:27 PM   #34
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

propita wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Kelthaz wrote: View Post

Who the hell are you to decide who deserves life-saving medical treatment and who doesn't? Your child at home gets a little mouthy, so you cut off her insulin until she behaves?
For real. I do not want someone arbitrarily deciding who "deserves" medical care and who doesn't.
ATimson wrote: View Post
Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Who the hell are you to decide who deserves life-saving medical treatment and who doesn't?
The person who gets stuck with the bill?
I should be clearer, I'm not talking about life-saving care, or even regular preventive care for children OR adults. I'm talking about the abusers.

Locally, there's two homeless guys who call for ambulance rides averaging twice a day. And half the time, they leave the hospital soon after arrival because they didn't want to wait more than five minutes. I'm not joking. Big interview in the local paper, direct quotes of them being irate that people were not kowtowing to their wants. We're talking literally hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, plus the unavailability of the ambulance for others who are actually having emergencies.

Hubby was on call this past weekend. A parent called him--child receiving free medical care and the formula she opened was the wrong one. Okay, she had enough for the weekend, so fix it Monday, right? No! She wanted it fixed NOW, regardless of the costs to the hospital (read CA taxpayers) to get both a pharmacist into the office and the deliveryman on a Sunday (this department is closed weekends, but with people on call for emergencies). True, there was a delivery error (long before Hubby started working there), but she signed for the item without checking. The delivery person is delivering, not checking prescriptions--not qualified. Had she checked, as she was supposed to, there would have been no false-emergency. This was formula with a few nutritional additives, not medication.

These the kinds of attitude that are wrong. Not the "I'm out of insulin" or "my child just broke their arm and needs help now" things, or the once-a-year well-child checkup which can catch problems early.
What this tells me is that the resources in that area are not stretched so thin that they can't accommodate the whiners and fraudsters. That doesn't excuse those people's behavior, but it demonstrates that the situation isn't so bad that they're about to start rationing.

If it does get bad, guess what? People making frivolous or non-emergency calls will be told they just have to wait. Big deal.
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Old November 29 2012, 06:35 PM   #35
propita
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

No, they don't have to wait. The ambulance company was sued in the past for doing just that, so they answer every call. And laws were enacted, not for the whiners but for the legitimate errors by medical personnel, which carry over to allow the whiners to abuse them.

As I said, there are legitimate medical issues requiring immediate assistance, even by the whiners and abusers. And the whiners and abusers shouldn't have to grovel to receive it. But they should follow the rules and they should not seek unneeded special priorities under circumstances that don't require them, taking resources away from others who actually DO require them at that moment. We're not talking emergencies here, just routine care.
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Old November 29 2012, 06:45 PM   #36
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

propita wrote: View Post
No, they don't have to wait. The ambulance company was sued in the past for doing just that, so they answer every call. And laws were enacted, not for the whiners but for the legitimate errors by medical personnel, which carry over to allow the whiners to abuse them.

As I said, there are legitimate medical issues requiring immediate assistance, even by the whiners and abusers. And the whiners and abusers shouldn't have to grovel to receive it. But they should follow the rules and they should not seek unneeded special priorities under circumstances that don't require them, taking resources away from others who actually DO require them at that moment. We're not talking emergencies here, just routine care.
How does that work? What people who need immediate attention aren't getting it because of fraudsters and whiners? It is not illegal to triage.
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Old November 29 2012, 09:05 PM   #37
Gaith
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

propita wrote: View Post
Locally, there's two homeless guys who call for ambulance rides averaging twice a day. And half the time, they leave the hospital soon after arrival because they didn't want to wait more than five minutes. I'm not joking. Big interview in the local paper, direct quotes of them being irate that people were not kowtowing to their wants. We're talking literally hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, plus the unavailability of the ambulance for others who are actually having emergencies.
Surely, then, they could be prosecuted for fraudelent requests for emergency care?


propita wrote: View Post
Locally, there's two homeless guys who call for ambulance rides averaging twice a day. And half the time, they leave the hospital soon after arrival because they didn't want to wait more than five minutes. I'm not joking. Big interview in the local paper, direct quotes of them being irate that people were not kowtowing to their wants. We're talking literally hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, plus the unavailability of the ambulance for others who are actually having emergencies.

Hubby was on call this past weekend. A parent called him--child receiving free medical care and the formula she opened was the wrong one. Okay, she had enough for the weekend, so fix it Monday, right? No! She wanted it fixed NOW, regardless of the costs to the hospital (read CA taxpayers) to get both a pharmacist into the office and the deliveryman on a Sunday (this department is closed weekends, but with people on call for emergencies). True, there was a delivery error (long before Hubby started working there), but she signed for the item without checking. The delivery person is delivering, not checking prescriptions--not qualified. Had she checked, as she was supposed to, there would have been no false-emergency. This was formula with a few nutritional additives, not medication.
Sounds to me as though that's the sort of abuse of public resources that "conservative" politicians should concentrate on addressing andcurbing, instead of arguing against healthcare for those who actually do desperately need it.

It's understandable and even laudable that liberals, in their determination to save lives and livelihoods, set up systems that can occasionally be misused in these sorts of ways. But, without excusing the actions of abusers, I'd rather society overreach in such matters than under-reach.
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Old November 29 2012, 09:21 PM   #38
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

Shaw wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
bigdaddy wrote: View Post
Actually Obama could have based a single payer system. He had the votes in the house and the senate, but he didn't push for it hard enough, because, like most liberals, he's a whiney crybaby that just sits in the corner and bitches about Republicans instead of taking them on. I will never forgive him for the fact he just sat around and did nothing while the bill got watered down into nothing. Companies shouldn't have control over my health and profit from me being sick, or let me die because it's cheaper.
Absolute nonsense that isn't even a little bit true. Obama wanted a public option and fought hard for it. He didn't even have the votes for that, not even from his own party, even though he said there would be no healthcare reform without it. Congress called his bluff and he had to drop it, which resulted in the individual mandate instead. To say we didn't get single-payer because Obama didn't "fight hard enough" is just factually wrong. It wasn't going to happen, not with the makeup of Congress at the time. Sorry.
Actually, Obama did have the votes for a single payer system but wanted a bipartisan solution. The (single) Republican that Obama targeted was Olympia Snowe. The plan was watered down until she was willing to vote for it in the Senate Finance Committee (which she did), but then she voted against it in the final senate vote (making it pretty much a wasted effort and a lost opportunity for the rest of us).
Exactly. I'm amazed by what people like to see in their own head.

Obama had the 60 votes, and the house. He wanted to work with the Republicans who didn't want health care, who don't want to work with Obama. Obama wasted time instead of actually fighting for what he supposedly wanted, he backed down and watered the bill down for no reason.

Obama wanted health care reform, Republicans didn't. Trying to do some BS on "working together" was and still is a waste of time.
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Old November 29 2012, 09:26 PM   #39
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

bigdaddy wrote: View Post
Shaw wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post

Absolute nonsense that isn't even a little bit true. Obama wanted a public option and fought hard for it. He didn't even have the votes for that, not even from his own party, even though he said there would be no healthcare reform without it. Congress called his bluff and he had to drop it, which resulted in the individual mandate instead. To say we didn't get single-payer because Obama didn't "fight hard enough" is just factually wrong. It wasn't going to happen, not with the makeup of Congress at the time. Sorry.
Actually, Obama did have the votes for a single payer system but wanted a bipartisan solution. The (single) Republican that Obama targeted was Olympia Snowe. The plan was watered down until she was willing to vote for it in the Senate Finance Committee (which she did), but then she voted against it in the final senate vote (making it pretty much a wasted effort and a lost opportunity for the rest of us).
Exactly. I'm amazed by what people like to see in their own head.

Obama had the 60 votes, and the house. He wanted to work with the Republicans who didn't want health care, who don't want to work with Obama. Obama wasted time instead of actually fighting for what he supposedly wanted, he backed down and watered the bill down for no reason.

Obama wanted health care reform, Republicans didn't. Trying to do some BS on "working together" was and still is a waste of time.
Obama never had sufficient votes in the House or the Senate to pass a single-payer system. Ever. This is a bizarre myth.
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Old November 30 2012, 01:12 AM   #40
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

And he never had those 60 votes in the Senate in any practical sense, due to Republican obstructionism (see: Al Franken's election), due to illness (see: Robert Byrd's hospitalization), and due to death (see: Ted Kennedy).
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Old November 30 2012, 06:38 AM   #41
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
propita wrote: View Post
No, they don't have to wait. The ambulance company was sued in the past for doing just that, so they answer every call. And laws were enacted, not for the whiners but for the legitimate errors by medical personnel, which carry over to allow the whiners to abuse them.

As I said, there are legitimate medical issues requiring immediate assistance, even by the whiners and abusers. And the whiners and abusers shouldn't have to grovel to receive it. But they should follow the rules and they should not seek unneeded special priorities under circumstances that don't require them, taking resources away from others who actually DO require them at that moment. We're not talking emergencies here, just routine care.
How does that work? What people who need immediate attention aren't getting it because of fraudsters and whiners? It is not illegal to triage.
There has been at least one case. And due to the lawsuit, they will not triage, but transport. It's not right.



Gaith wrote: View Post
Surely, then, they could be prosecuted for fraudelent requests for emergency care?

***

Sounds to me as though that's the sort of abuse of public resources that "conservative" politicians should concentrate on addressing andcurbing, instead of arguing against healthcare for those who actually do desperately need it.

It's understandable and even laudable that liberals, in their determination to save lives and livelihoods, set up systems that can occasionally be misused in these sorts of ways. But, without excusing the actions of abusers, I'd rather society overreach in such matters than under-reach.
Total agreement here, except that its both conservatives and liberals who should be working to address this, so that the money that IS spent, is spent right. "Right" as in "not wasted."
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Old November 30 2012, 02:01 PM   #42
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

Reading this thread reminds me that America is fucked up.
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Old November 30 2012, 02:39 PM   #43
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

SonOfMogh wrote: View Post
Reading this thread reminds me that America is fucked up.
I weep for America.
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Old November 30 2012, 03:11 PM   #44
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

propita wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
propita wrote: View Post
No, they don't have to wait. The ambulance company was sued in the past for doing just that, so they answer every call. And laws were enacted, not for the whiners but for the legitimate errors by medical personnel, which carry over to allow the whiners to abuse them.

As I said, there are legitimate medical issues requiring immediate assistance, even by the whiners and abusers. And the whiners and abusers shouldn't have to grovel to receive it. But they should follow the rules and they should not seek unneeded special priorities under circumstances that don't require them, taking resources away from others who actually DO require them at that moment. We're not talking emergencies here, just routine care.
How does that work? What people who need immediate attention aren't getting it because of fraudsters and whiners? It is not illegal to triage.
There has been at least one case. And due to the lawsuit, they will not triage, but transport. It's not right.
I don't think you're getting what I'm saying.

If there are x ambulances available, and they have x+y calls within a short span of time, then they are going to have to delay picking up y individuals, or refer them to another hospital's ER, where the same calculation will have to be made.

That they do not appear to have had to make such a choice thus far just shows there is currently some slack in the system, which is actually a good sign, considering how ERs tend to be overloaded. Now, if we cover more and more people, there should be less ER traffic, because ERs are often used by people who are uninsured so they can get care. Such care is often expensive and complicated and could have been handled in a much cheaper and more orderly fashion by the patient's assigned GP.

In other words, this "abuse" you cite of ambulance services should actually diminish under Obamacare.
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Old November 30 2012, 06:52 PM   #45
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Re: Do the Homeless Get Free Medical Treatment at American Hospitals?

propita wrote: View Post
Hubby was on call this past weekend. A parent called him--child receiving free medical care and the formula she opened was the wrong one. Okay, she had enough for the weekend, so fix it Monday, right? No! She wanted it fixed NOW, regardless of the costs to the hospital (read CA taxpayers) to get both a pharmacist into the office and the deliveryman on a Sunday (this department is closed weekends, but with people on call for emergencies). True, there was a delivery error (long before Hubby started working there), but she signed for the item without checking. The delivery person is delivering, not checking prescriptions--not qualified. Had she checked, as she was supposed to, there would have been no false-emergency. This was formula with a few nutritional additives, not medication.

These the kinds of attitude that are wrong. Not the "I'm out of insulin" or "my child just broke their arm and needs help now" things, or the once-a-year well-child checkup which can catch problems early.
I can see this from both sides, both as the provider who tries her damndest to explain why this emergency really isn't and from the point of view of a caregiver who is at the end of her rope.

Parents of chronically ill children don't get weekends off. They are on the job 24/7. A caregiver lives in a state of chronic anxiety & exhaustion & that can addle your brain after awhile.

Been there. I wasn't always the nicest when a provider was patiently explaining his position to me, either. I'm sure there are notations in my sweetie's charts saying, "Spoke with girlfriend. She's a bitch."
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