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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 28 2012, 05:13 AM   #1636
flemm
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I'm not a fan of Bashir and Quark being in love with Jadzia as well, I don't know what the point of that was.
Did they already know that Terry Farrell would be leaving the show?

If so, I suppose they wanted to establish how much Jadzia meant to everyone prior to her death. It ends up playing a role in the two-parter that opens season 7.

Seven of Five wrote: View Post
Eep, I thought the episode was more average than one and a half territory.
I would probably have rated it a little higher, for what it's worth. Probably two or two-and-a-half stars.

My feelings about the episode waver a bit depending on how much I'm annoyed by the implausibility of Dukat's involvement. But, in reality, except for Visitor doing a really good job, and Kira being a really deep character at this point, the episode doesn't really have much going for it.

I can't recall if there's some explanation for the ambiance of Terok Nor not being depicted in the previous "Noir" style, but I find that aspect of the episode wierd and a little off-putting.
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Old November 28 2012, 08:52 AM   #1637
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

flemm wrote: View Post
Did they already know that Terry Farrell would be leaving the show?
Apparently so. Memory Alpha quotes Farrell on a DVD feature claiming that she requested to be killed off in "Change of Heart" if the writers were intent on killing her character, since contract negotiations had already collapsed.
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Old November 28 2012, 11:03 AM   #1638
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I would've rated it a lot higher myself, probably 3 stars. As for why Terok Nor looks less dark, well, both previous episodes we were there were actually memories, this is the first time we've actually been there. Maybe the moral darkness of the place imposed itself on Odo's memories, making him remember the place physically darker than it really was?
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Old November 28 2012, 11:38 AM   #1639
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Harvey wrote: View Post
flemm wrote: View Post
Did they already know that Terry Farrell would be leaving the show?
Apparently so. Memory Alpha quotes Farrell on a DVD feature claiming that she requested to be killed off in "Change of Heart" if the writers were intent on killing her character, since contract negotiations had already collapsed.
That's a shame. Just a waste of a good chance that was presented to them. I loved how Tears Of The Prophets ended, but Jadzia's death was pathetically done.
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Old November 28 2012, 01:51 PM   #1640
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

It is a low score, but I have a great deal of trouble getting past the way this episode undermines one of the best character dynamics on the show. Dukat's desire to get romantically involved with Kira was about ego, self-delusion, and a desire to be loved by the person that hated him most. Now Dukat just seems like a creep that wanted to get with the daughter of his former lover. It also interferes with Dukat's relationship with Tora Naprem.

If Kira's mother had hooked up with some Cardassian other than Dukat, perhaps the Prefect that ruled Bajor before him, I would be more forgiving about the episode's other problems.

flemm wrote: View Post
I'm willing to accept the time travel portion as basically a sort of "vision," so the "tampering with the timestream" complaint doesn't really bother me. And meeting Kira's mother is interesting, after meeting her father in Ties of Blood and Water (?), I think it was.
That's the way I tried to see the episode when it first aired, and that would certainly make the most sense. But considering the way the Orb of Time worked in Trials and Tribble-ations, and the fact that Kira got the old "Don't interfere with the timeline" speech at the beginning of the episode, it seems like she really did go back in time.

Here's a thing I just realised, Kira claimed at the beginning of the episode that you can only use the Orb of Time if the Prophets consider your quest worthy. Does that mean that the Prophets approved of Darvin's plan to kill Kirk?
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Old November 28 2012, 04:25 PM   #1641
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
It is a low score, but I have a great deal of trouble getting past the way this episode undermines one of the best character dynamics on the show. Dukat's desire to get romantically involved with Kira was about ego, self-delusion, and a desire to be loved by the person that hated him most. Now Dukat just seems like a creep that wanted to get with the daughter of his former lover. It also interferes with Dukat's relationship with Tora Naprem.
I don't think it takes anything away from the Dukat/Kira story arc. In fact it clarifies things, I mean before this episode when you really think about it, why did Dukat set his eyes on Kira? Why her? Dukat bonking Meru certainly explains a lot.

That's why this episode should be 3.5 or 4 stars because it totally shakes up Kira's perceptions about collaborators, her mother, and about her father.

Finally it doesn't interfere with Tora Naprem because a) Ziyal had to be twentyish when she died, which means Naprem gave birth to Ziyal just after Meru died. Also Dukat could have tired of Meru, that would be typical of Dukat as he set his eyes upon Naprem instead.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Here's a thing I just realised, Kira claimed at the beginning of the episode that you can only use the Orb of Time if the Prophets consider your quest worthy. Does that mean that the Prophets approved of Darvin's plan to kill Kirk?
Yes because Kirk screwed around too much with the timeline.
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Old November 28 2012, 09:16 PM   #1642
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
If Kira's mother had hooked up with some Cardassian other than Dukat, perhaps the Prefect that ruled Bajor before him, I would be more forgiving about the episode's other problems.
I basically agree, and that's what I meant earlier when I said that my opinion of the episode varies depending on how much Dukat's involvement annoys me.

It would be a stronger story, I think, if Dukat had been less directly involved.

I do like the meat of the episode, though, which is Kira seeing another angle of the occupation and being forced to admit that she can't judge her mother as harshly as she would like to.

Ln X wrote: View Post
Yes because Kirk screwed around too much with the timeline.
Yep. The man is a menace ;-)
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Old November 28 2012, 11:24 PM   #1643
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I seem to remember watching an interview somewhere that basically Dukat hooking up with Kira's mom was a poke at Nana Visitor's dislike of Marc Aliamo and her blatant refusal to do a romantic scene with him.
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Old November 28 2012, 11:50 PM   #1644
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Speaking of Marc Alaimo, he came into my store recently and I help him with his bags. Apparently he lives nearby to me. Weird D-list celebrity moment. I told him that I recognized him from DS9 and all he said was, "Heh, so you like Star Trek, do you?" He seemed really cool.

I'm not sure why I interrupted the thread with this. Carry on.
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Old November 29 2012, 03:32 AM   #1645
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

R. Star wrote: View Post
I seem to remember watching an interview somewhere that basically Dukat hooking up with Kira's mom was a poke at Nana Visitor's dislike of Marc Aliamo and her blatant refusal to do a romantic scene with him.
I think it was more that, at one point, due to their onscreen chemistry, the writers were thinking of having Kira and Dukat hook up. You can tell they are thinking about going there in season 4 or thereabouts. But Visitor hated the idea, not because of Alaimo, but because of Dukat.

I do think she also talked about how she got into character for Kira, and Kira loathed Dukat so much, that she had a hard time being civil to Alaimo (while in character). Something like that.
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Old November 29 2012, 03:24 PM   #1646
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ln X wrote: View Post
I don't think it takes anything away from the Dukat/Kira story arc. In fact it clarifies things, I mean before this episode when you really think about it, why did Dukat set his eyes on Kira? Why her? Dukat bonking Meru certainly explains a lot.
I disagree, this episode explains nothing. Dukat was attempting to win Kira over because he has a psychological need to be loved by the Bajorans (or at least he did before Waltz), and since Kira is the Bajoran he spends the most time with that's where he focused his attention. There was an added bonus in that Kira absolutely hated Dukat with every bone in her body, so winning her over was the ultimate challenge and would prove he could get any Bajoran to love him. I consider that to be a far, far superior explanation to Dukat's interest in Kira than him having been involved with her mother and being a bit of a creep.


Inquisiton (****½)

For the first half of the episode, Inquisition plays like a redux of TNG's The Drumhead, and that's no bad thing, but it ends in a way that's the antithesis to that episode, which is also no bad thing. Both plots appear to be the same on the surface, a Starfleet investigator shows up and is driven by personal reasons to uncover a conspiracy where there likely isn't one. The divergence begins at around the half-way point, because while Satie began to use fanciful arguments to pursue her investigation, Sloan's arguments start to seem plausible and the audience begins to wonder if he may be correct, especially once Bashir is abducted by Weyoun. The major difference is that while The Drumhead ended with Picard giving a speech about the importance of due process, Inquisition ends with Sloan pooh-poohing that notion in his own little speech and arguing that such a position is naive.

To make things clear, I do not agree with Sloan's position, I definitely identify more closely with Picard's speech than Sloan's. But it is an interesting and entertaining moral argument and I feel it deserves to be had. The problem with Roddenberry's vision of a perfect future is that to depict it you have to brush a lot of problems under the rug and pretend they don't exist, and if Star Trek really is supposed to be a series that explores these moral themes then the Roddenberry Box is counter-productive to the supposed goal of the franchise. Right now in the real world there are organisations working for supposedly enlightened democracies that act in ways which are less than enlightened. How are we supposed to move past the need for these dark agents if we're not allowed to have a mature conversation about them?

Yes, Section 31 does not fit with Roddenberry's vision of the future. But I don't care.

One of the minor flaws I have with this episode is that it's a bit late in the series to be introducing a group like Section 31. With less than a season and a half to go, there's a sudden, shocking revelation that has been retconned into the entire franchise. It's not that big of a problem considering part of the point of Section 31 is that nobody is supposed to know of them, so the fact that they emerge from nowhere isn't that unreasonable. But being a late addition does limit what can be done with them in the future. However, as a plus, the great thing about the investigation into Bashir is that it's based entirely on events that we've seen happen on the show. This episode manages to twist things we thought we knew to support a position we can almost believe, and it manages to poke some fun at the absurdity of some of the things that came before as well.
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Old November 29 2012, 04:39 PM   #1647
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

To be sure, the episode never entirely refutes the possibility that Bashir could have been working with the Dominion without being aware of it. If anything, I'm a little bothered by his refusal to even consider the notion.
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Old November 29 2012, 08:31 PM   #1648
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
This episode manages to twist things we thought we knew to support a position we can almost believe, and it manages to poke some fun at the absurdity of some of the things that came before as well.
The runabout left in orbit over the Dominion internment camp being the most notable.
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Old November 29 2012, 08:41 PM   #1649
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
...But it is an interesting and entertaining moral argument and I feel it deserves to be had. The problem with Roddenberry's vision of a perfect future is that to depict it you have to brush a lot of problems under the rug and pretend they don't exist, and if Star Trek really is supposed to be a series that explores these moral themes then the Roddenberry Box is counter-productive to the supposed goal of the franchise. Right now in the real world there are organisations working for supposedly enlightened democracies that act in ways which are less than enlightened. How are we supposed to move past the need for these dark agents if we're not allowed to have a mature conversation about them?
Having Section 31 make plausible arguments is also important if they're going to be effective antagonists. I believe they are, for the most part, and it's largely because Sloan is permitted to hold his own against Bashir. Indeed, he even comes across as the more sophisticated of the two at times (given that Bashir can be rather black-and-white in his thinking). An effective villain needs to challenge the hero, and Sloan is permitted to do that; not only directly but by rebutting Bashir's idealized worldview for the audience. Sloan is the villain who offers temptation, who speaks what sounds reasonable, and that's the sort of danger we need in the antagonist if we're going to be addressing the issues Section 31 is concerned with. After all, if there weren't good arguments for such positions and behaviours, they wouldn't be so threatening and so it wouldn't be so important that they be challenged. Given that from this point on Sloan will be viewing Bashir as an asset whether Bashir likes it or not, a large part of his credibility as a villain consists of being able to construct a frighteningly good case for himself - just as this episode manages to construct a convincing case for Bashir being a programmed Dominion agent.
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Old November 29 2012, 09:14 PM   #1650
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post

Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night (*½)

Kira wants to know whether her mother was romantically involved with Dukat
I remember seeing the promos for this episode before it aired. It came in the wake of Ziyal's death and I remember thinking, "Please, do not let them find some warped way to make Kira Dukat's daughter."
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