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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old November 27 2012, 04:05 PM   #76
Lynx
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Re: Much love to Kes

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
^^
No, it's not a contradiction. It's you who don't understand what I mean.

First of all, I used the word "foul play" to describe a similar situation I read about. Maybe the British have another meaning of the word than the Americans.

As for trusting non-official sources, well, if the official sources aren't exactly reliable, then you must search the information elsewhere. And as I wrote before, I do find at least one of those sources reliable. What I've found out, Jennifer Lien didn't leave of her own free will and she was very unhappy over being kicked out, not have her contract renewed, being told to leave, dropped from the cast or whatever.

Do you really want me to have trust in people who change their stories from one week to another and also insult me and many other fans by coming up with something as insulting as "Fury"? Honestly, not the kind of people I would invite to my birthday party.

When it comes to the word "mutual agreement", I always get suspicious when it's the one and only explanation for why someone is leaving a TV series, rock band or something similar.

In the Sasha Alexander case, it was clearly stated from all parts why the actress wanted to leave the show she was in. I don't remember that the word "mutual agreement" was even used in the official statements that were published about the event.

In the Lien case we were first told that she had left of her own free will, then it was changed to that tale about writers not capable of writing for the character and that was all a "mutual agreement". I can also recall two events when members of two very famous rock bands had left the bands due to "mutual agreements" and it was many years later revealed from all parts that the both members were fired, one because the other members in the band simply wanted another person to join the band and the other because he objected to the musical direction the manager and another leading member of the band wanted.

I must admit that every time I see the word "mutual agreement" show up when someone leaves a successful project under mysterious circumstances, then I get suspicious and in most cases I've been right in my suspicions.
Trust them?
Invite them to a birthday party?
So you believe you know these people personally and they did this just to spite you?
You've used some vague source as reliable just because you believe they are. That's how the National Inquirer and FOX News stays in business too. Non-offical sources are usually called gossip or hear say.
Sorry, but I don't think you have any reliable source or credibility simply due to the fact that you believe that Lien was let go and "Fury" was written specifically as a direct and personal insult to you. That
No, I don't believe that "Fury" was written specifically as a direct and pertsonal insult to me. I never stated that. What I've stated is that "Fury" was written as an insult to the fans of the character Kes who dared to question the decision to kick out the character and wanted her back.

And Lien was kicked out, you can't deny that. Otherwise her character would at least have been visible in most of the episodes in seasons 4, 5, 6 and 7.

My sources may be non-official but they are no more vague than the official fairy tales about writers all of a sudden being incapable of doing their jobs and "mutual agreement".

Whether they are or not, it's nearly a decade later. Nothing said or done can change it, so what's continuing to question it going to do? Voyager isn't going back into production and Lien isn't getting her job back. So even IF we find out what they said was a lie, what is it really going to change? If Kes fans REALLY are that upset, then they will still will be upset. Why carry around anger over something you still can't prove and can never change? What good is it ever going to do?
You're actually right in that statement. Nothing can be changed. But as you state, we can still be p***ed off by those events.
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Old November 27 2012, 07:22 PM   #77
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Re: Much love to Kes

My sources may be non-official but they are no more vague than the official fairy tales about writers all of a sudden being incapable of doing their jobs.
Are we watching the same show?
It's very clear to a large part of the fan base that watched the show that many of those writing for the it were incapable of doing their jobs or were running low on creative and developmental aspects for a majority of the characters on it. One of the biggest complaints about Kes was the writers didnt know how too and weren't fleshing out the character to her full potential. I don't see how that's a fairy tale.

However, just out of curiosity...

If it wasn't a mutual agreement and Jen Lien is no longer under contract or even in the acting biz, why do you think she would still lie? If she tells the truth, there is absolutely nothing legal or otherwise anybody can do to her. So why do you think she would lie to her fans?
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Old November 27 2012, 07:48 PM   #78
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Re: Much love to Kes

Why the sarcasm?

1. The strange thing is that the writers managed to come up with good Kes stories almost up to the last minute of season 3, then all of a sudden they lost that ability. Must have been something in the coffee they started drinking between season 3 and 4 or........?

2. To answer your second question, I don't know. I'm not a mind reader.

But if we assume that she was happy to be dumped after three seasons, then she could have come up with a statement about it at the beginning of season 4. That would have prevented all kinds of speculation and rumors.
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Old November 27 2012, 09:43 PM   #79
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Re: Much love to Kes

She isn't being a whiny asshole because Jennifer is a classy broad.

I'm sure at some point I read a quote about some one saying they saw Jennifer running out of Berman's office in tears.

And if everything was above board then why did Mulgrew spend years bullying Jeri Ryan for getting Jennifer kicked off the show?
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Old November 27 2012, 10:02 PM   #80
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Re: Much love to Kes

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I'm sure at some point I read a quote about some one saying they saw Jennifer running out of Berman's office in tears.
That could mean anything. I've read that on this forum multiple times and as far I know it could have been birthed on this forum and grown into a fact. There's never any specifics about when, we don't know who was in Berman's office, we don't know if Lien's dog had jut died that morning.
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Old November 27 2012, 10:14 PM   #81
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Re: Much love to Kes

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
The point is that the reasons they gave us were vague and changed all the time. First it was "Jennifer left of her own free will", then it became "oh we do actually axe her because we weren't able to come up with stories for the character", all that spiced with comments about how "Seven saved the show". Not to mention the wonderful word "mutual agreement" which is always used when there is foul play.
"Foul Play" refers to murder.
Nobody was murdered
No, Foulplay is how Chickens and Turkeys (and Owls) begin a sex act

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Old November 27 2012, 10:19 PM   #82
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Re: Much love to Kes

One gibletjob and your marked forever as a pervert.
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Old November 27 2012, 10:44 PM   #83
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Re: Much love to Kes

teacake wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I'm sure at some point I read a quote about some one saying they saw Jennifer running out of Berman's office in tears.
That could mean anything. I've read that on this forum multiple times and as far I know it could have been birthed on this forum and grown into a fact. There's never any specifics about when, we don't know who was in Berman's office, we don't know if Lien's dog had jut died that morning.
Well, I didn't create that one!

What I have heard , Jennifer was very depressed during the filming of "The Gift" and the other actors weren't happy over the situation either. If she "left of her own free will", the atmosphere during the filming would have been different.
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Old November 28 2012, 02:17 AM   #84
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Re: Much love to Kes

Lynx wrote: View Post
Why the sarcasm?
Because I have a broad sense of humor

1. The strange thing is that the writers managed to come up with good Kes stories almost up to the last minute of season 3, then all of a sudden they lost that ability. Must have been something in the coffee they started drinking between season 3 and 4 or........?
IMO, I don't know if I would call Kes' stories good because I don't feel they advanced the character in the way that they should. For example, I think "Elogium" falls apart because it begins to focus too much on the sci-fi aspect instead of tackling the more serious issue of teen pregnancy. I will however say, when Lien was given a script that focused on her character she stepped up and though her acting elevated a lackluster story to a better one. It's why I enjoy eps. like "Coldfire", "Before & After" and even "Fury" because they allowed Lien stretch her legs as an actress by stepping outside the limited boundaries of Kes' usual personality and display a broader range as an actress. Sweet and innocent was ok but I wanted to see what Lien as an actress could bring to the role and why she won the role out of all those that tried out for the part. The unfortunate part was those moments for her were few and far in between.

2. To answer your second question, I don't know. I'm not a mind reader.

But if we assume that she was happy to be dumped after three seasons, then she could have come up with a statement about it at the beginning of season 4. That would have prevented all kinds of speculation and rumors.
I know you're not a mind reader but as her fan, you know a bit about her personality.

If I could walk in Lien's shoes and empathize with her being the shy private person she was at the time, I don't think I'd be emotionally ready to speak to the press or to the public about being let go from my job. Lien in interviews speaks very little, in front of the public she barely gets out two words due to fright. I really don't think she had it in her to speak on something that was very private. Could you seriously go in front of a room full of fans or to the press about being let go from your job if you were depressed about it?

What I have heard , Jennifer was very depressed during the filming of "The Gift" and the other actors weren't happy over the situation either. If she "left of her own free will", the atmosphere during the filming would have been different.
I doubt that very much honestly.
Even if they gave her a party, it's never a joyous occasion have to say good-bye to anyone regardless of how it went down. Yiou don't work with people for 14 to 16 hours a day for 3 years and not feel something for them. If ANYBODY from the cast had to go, the atmosphere would have been the same. The scene in "The Gift" were Mulgrew and Lien are saying farewell, those tears in their eyes are real.
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Last edited by exodus; November 28 2012 at 02:50 AM.
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Old November 28 2012, 02:43 AM   #85
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Re: Much love to Kes

exodus wrote: View Post
For example, I think "Elogium" falls apart because it begins to focus too much on the sci-fi aspect instead of tackling the more serious issue of teen pregnancy.
Yes because teens are always begging older men to impregnate them
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Old November 28 2012, 02:53 AM   #86
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Re: Much love to Kes

teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
For example, I think "Elogium" falls apart because it begins to focus too much on the sci-fi aspect instead of tackling the more serious issue of teen pregnancy.
Yes because teens are always begging older men to impregnate them
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