Is WB simply afraid of Wonder Woman?

[sojourner]

Gaith wrote:

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And when I dream, I prefer to be Indy than Lara; Bond than Bristow.

To paraphrase the great Lou Reed, "try taking a walk on the wildside".

[Dream]

AvBaur wrote:

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Do you guys seriously think Catwoman would have still flopped had it been as good as The Dark Knight, with the same kind of marketing push?

Batman is Batman. No superhero can compare to him in terms of popularity with the audience except for maybe Spider-man, but the crappy Spider-man 3 and mediocre reboot have harmed that brand.

The best I can see a Wonder Woman movie doing is around Thor or Captain America levels if it is good, but it could also easily fail as badly as the recent Green Lantern movie.

[AvBaur]

Dream wrote:

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Batman is Batman. No superhero can compare to him in terms of popularity with the audience except for maybe Spider-man, but the crappy Spider-man 3 and mediocre reboot have harmed that brand.

Replace "The Dark Knight" with "Iron Man", then. Iron Man had arguably even less brand recognition than Wonder Woman (or Catwoman), but it wouldn't change my argument at all.

Dream wrote:

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The best I can see a Wonder Woman movie doing is around Thor or Captain America levels if it is good, but it could also easily fail as badly as the recent Green Lantern movie.

I think WB would be perfectly happy if a WW movie did Thor/Captain America-size business. And the risk of failure exists for every movie, especially if the movie in question is/looks as bad as GL.

[Professor Zoom]

AvBaur wrote:

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What I'm saying, though, is that there's usually a good reason why awful movies make lots of money, and it's usually one (or both) of the two I've named. None of the many failed female-led action movies had either of those things going for them.

Basically, your argument comes down to name recognition and being a part of a franchise. Which, arguably, Laura Croft was a part of. And it's not a BAD movie, like Catwoman. It's an ok movie. Like Thor. Or Iron Man 2.

Do you guys seriously think Catwoman would have still flopped had it been as good as The Dark Knight, with the same kind of marketing push?

Nothing was going to save it from those pants.

[Guy Gardener]

Somehow I saw the episode of Oprah with Halle before catwoman came out and they're both standing in front of a slightly larger than life poster of halle in full costume talking about how good she looks as Catwomen.

But seriously, Catwoman's nemesis was a 50 year old exmodel who was selling lethal make up, because she thought she would make a lot of money, even though all her customers were going to die and their families were going to sue her? That's not a job for Catwoman, that's a job for Errin Brockivich.

I still can't believe they wasted one of the greatest actresses of our times.

Alex Borstien.

"We don't care if you're funny as hell and all round magnificent, because we need an insecure fat girl who will just about kill her self to look a little thinner and younger, can you do that? I assume you can do that because you're fat and all fat people hate themselves."

[AvBaur]

Professor Zoom wrote:

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Basically, your argument comes down to name recognition and being a part of a franchise. Which, arguably, Laura Croft was a part of. And it's not a BAD movie, like Catwoman. It's an ok movie. Like Thor. Or Iron Man 2.

Tomb Raider 2 (which was really the one that failed - the 1st one did ok) wasn't quite as bad as Catwoman, but almost. And sequels only make big bucks if people really liked the previous movie. An imdb score of 5.5 for Tomb Raider 1 seems to point against that. (Iron Man 2: 7.1 / Thor: 7.0)


Here's my point: there just isn't any conclusive evidence that any of the big female-led flops failed because they starred women. All of them were lackluster movies, and you could tell that they weren't going to be any good from the trailers.

On the other hand, there are now a number of examples for popular genre movies starring women that did make a lot of money by actually appealing to female audiences, such as The Hunger Games, and the Twilight saga. There were even some that made a decent amount of money despite not being all that good/popular, like Snow White & the Huntsman, or Salt.

So when Hollywood executives and people here say that female-led movies don't sell, that's based on a double standard. As I said before, nobody would claim that the gender of the protagonist had anything to do with the failures of, say, Green Lantern, Battleship, or John Carter.

It may be true that there aren't a lot of successful examples of female-led action films, but there also aren't any examples (that I can think of) of such movies failing despite the high quality of the movies themselves and/or their marketing campaigns.

[DarKush]

To the OP's question, I do think there is some fear on the part of WB executives to put forward a Wonder Woman movie. I think a lot of this fear, where gender is concerned, is unfounded. I think audiences have grown a lot more accepting of female action leads, in addition to female being involved in the action of male-led action films. A tough, capable female is almost in every male-led action film now.

Of all the female superheroes Wonder Woman is the most ready for the big screen. I was checking out her Encyclopedia and her rogues' gallery isn't bad at all: Cheetah, Giganta, Circe, Ares, Veronica Cale, Dr. Poison, Dr. Psycho, Genocide, Silver Swan, etc. And recently Hera. I could definitely see Ares, Hera, Veronica Cale, Giganta, Circe, and Cheetah being great adversaries.

I also don't think her back story and her mythological ties are any more confusing or convoluted than a lot of other superheroes. A good writer can pull the strands together into something cohesive. If anything, in this age were fantasy films and books are cool, it's a great time to try Wonder Woman. Thor is a good model for how to do it. Also the animated film DC put out a couple years ago would be another good place to look for inspiration.

[Harvey]

JD wrote:

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Did anyone see Haywire? I know it didn't get that good of reviews, but I thought it looked pretty good, and it had a big name director (Steven Soderbergh), and some big names in the supporting cast (Micheal Fassbender, Ewan McGregor, Antonio Banderas, Micheal Douglas).

The reviews that I read were generally favorable, but I didn't really care for the movie. The story was pretty unremarkable, and Gina Carano -- as attractive and physically capable as she is -- couldn't act her way out of a paper bag.

With a budget of $23 million (not counting advertising) and worldwide grosses of $33 million, it wasn't a box office success, either.

[Gaith]

DarKush wrote:

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Also the animated film DC put out a couple years ago would be another good place to look for inspiration.

I fear that plot sounds boring as all hell to me... and in its story, where did all these Greek gods go between the Classical and modern times?

Guy Gardener wrote:

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Two words that can guarantee a successful Wonder Woman movie: "Nazi Zombies".

No feelings, no morals, no romance... Just Diana ploughing into an endless horde of the undead with her magic sword decapitating and bifurcating the Axis menace.

After the first 10 minutes there's no more bullshit about her sexist costume because you can't see it through the caked gore.

Halfway agree: I'd like to see a WW movie start off in an alternate/even worse WW2, where the Nazis have conquered all of Western Europe (and maybe are still allied with the Soviets?). Along the lines of Captain America, but with a grittier, more Raiders or even Temple of Doom (the non-"funny" bits, mind) feel. Captain America is good and all, but it's so darn shiny.

[Guy Gardener]

have you read New Frontier ( not sure if this bit is in the movie?) but Diana liberates a Combodian rapecamp. Women in bamboo cages taken out for sex and then put away like sports equipment when there's better things to do. So Diana beats up all the cambodian "soldiers" and they're all tied up, she releases the women too, then hands one of thema mahcine gun and says their fate is up to you. A lot of gunfire fire later everyone is feeling real good about themselves. So Diana and these heavily armed women spend the next few months running around south east asia killing every man they see, until they bump into Superman.

"Diana, this is wrong. you can't let them do this, it's murder."

"Shut up Clark, you'll never understand you're not a woman, hell, you're not even human."

(The hilarious bit is that Wonder Woman is almost 6 inches taller than Superman.)

Lucy lawless played Wonder Woman in that aniimated movie.

(but read the comics, a much much larger story.)

I really should think about watching it again.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0902272/

(Wow, Brooke Shields as Carol Ferris? Star Sapphire? That'd still look damn good today in llive action.)

[JD]

Gaith wrote:

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I think a big part of the appeal of action movies in general is protagonist identification and wish fulfillment: when I see and Iron Man or a Bond movie, I get to pretend/wish I was the guy, beating up baddies, wielding awesome gadgets and getting the girls. But as rich and badass as, say, Jolie's Lara Croft is, I don't at any level, even a subconscious one, want to be her, because I'm fine with being a dude. And, if she gets in a romance with a dude... well, I don't want to be her then, either. Whereas when Bond asks Agent Fields to help him find the hotel stationery... that's a different story.


Now, I enjoy watching dramas, comedies, and other genres with leading female roles just fine. I loved Prometheus a I dug Hanna. But...

But do you really need to be the same sex as the main character to relate to what their going through in something like WW. Sure we aren't the same sex, but I still related to what Katniss went through in Hunger Games, or what Sarah was going through when I watched Labyrinth the other day. There are plenty of situations that are common to both sexes that you can use in a movie like this. Hell, I really didn't have that much relating to Bella when I watch Twilight (yeah, I watched Twilight and I liked it). Now I'm not saying I imagined hooking up with Edward Cullen, but that doesn't mean I couldn't think about what it would be like to hook up with Edwina Cullen.

JD wrote:

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Personally, I love kick ass women and would be one of the first people in line for a good Ms. Marvel, or Wonder Woman movie.

I like strong female characters as much as anyone, but am not super-nuts about seeing superwomen kick and toss men around. Call that sexism if you like, I guess. I'd happily see a WW movie if the reviews were good enough, but I'm not clamoring for one.[/QUOTE]
Well, there are plenty of female villains in the DC universe that she could kick and toss around.

[Guy Gardener]

If you relate to Bella Swan on any level, it's time to give up ad move to Cleveland.

[Samurai8472]

Does anyone remember this statement by the WB in 2007?

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-207_162-3347604.html

The Web site Deadline Hollywood Daily claims Warner boss Jeff Robinov has issued a decree: "We are no longer doing movies with women in the lead."

Two movies headlined by power-house actresses didn't live up to expectations this year. Nicole Kidman is an Oscar-winning actress, but her most recent film "Invasion" might have been called "The Desertion" after it flopped at the box office.

"But that was just a bad movie," Cagle said. "It wasn't because Nicole Kidman was in it. It was because it wasn't a good movie."

The same happened with Jodie Foster's "The Brave One." The two-time Oscar-winner's flick fell flat. Both were released by Warner Brothers.

I don't think much has changed in 5 years

[Gaith]

JD wrote:

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But do you really need to be the same sex as the main character to relate to what their going through in something like WW.

Of course I can relate to emotions experienced by females. The Golden Compass is my favorite book bar none. You don't think I enjoyed Prometheus and Hanna for their compelling male characters, now, do ye?

[The Mirrorball Man]

Gaith wrote:

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The Golden Compass is my favorite book bar none. You don't think I enjoyed Prometheus and Hanna for their compelling male characters, now, do ye?

That's a conundrum. I don't know how anyone could enjoy The Golden Compass, Prometheus or Hanna on any level.