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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 27 2012, 04:55 AM   #436
cbspock
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
See my post right after the one you quoted -- I list the cues that were not included on the GNP release, as well as covering the numerous typos on that album's track list. This version is both substantially more complete and more accurate than the previous one.
Yeah, I had read that. I was just looking for a bottom-line on how many more minutes of run-time it all added up to. I'll take a look at my GNP disc when I get home.


Christopher wrote: View Post
I meant to remark before that this strikes me as odd:
...
What's called "Blackship Theme" here and in "Mirror, Mirror" is the same melody that was called "Romulan Theme" in "Balance of Terror." So shouldn't this say "Contains 'Romulan Theme' Composed by Fred Steiner" instead, since that's the original source of the melody?
Steiner himself quoted his "Romulan Theme" when he wrote "Black Ship Theme", but he doesn't need to attribute it since it's his own work. What work Duning cites, I guess depends on which work Duning is quoting. He seems to think he's quoting "Black Ship Theme", so I don't see why that doesn't answer the question. My assumption here is that the note shown ("contains theme by Steiner") was not something added by the producers of the collection, but instead was actually taken from the original manuscripts of the music. We know the guys who worked on the collection referenced the actual manuscripts
(how fucking cool is that, by the way!?!?!)
and used the info to correct cue titles etc. It makes sense that they would take this other info from the 'script. Note that the track listing for Mirror Mirror does not say "contains Romulan Theme from" etc. The "Mace Fight" track on the Catspaw listing (#15) does not say that it contains a theme from the Amok Time score, though to our ears it clearly does (from the TrekCore track previews). But the flybys that use Courage's Enterprise theme do contain that note.

The composers re-purpose their own material freely, but scrupulously note where they interpolate a colleague's work. Makes total sense.

It makes sense to me that Duning would quote from the same season's music, given a choice; that also may have avoided possible issues around using music written for a prior season. It also seems probable that, if producers showed him scores as reference, the scores from that same season would be closest to hand. Could it be that Duning never heard the season 1 music, so did not know that the melody had a longer "pedigree"? If he did know, he may have chosen to reference Steiner's most recent, presumably most fully-worked-out version of the music, rather than an earlier version.

There are differences btw "Romulan Theme" and "Black Ship Theme", at least in terms of the development. So maybe Duning really is quoting one over the other.

Y'know what is interesting is, Duning quotes the Amok Time score a couple times in s3. In the Truth No Beauty score, he uses a Vulcan theme in the bookend transporter room scenes, as a motif for Spock. In the Empath, he uses a descending theme from that same score when McCoy hypo's Spock. So first, when we see the track listings, I would expect to see those noted. And second – does that mean Duning knew Fried's score from Amok Time, was a fan of the episode even, and made it a point to reference that music?? Or does it just mean that some producer told him there was a Vulcan theme available to re-use?

Christopher wrote: View Post
there's a link to a podcast interview with the box set's producers, and they explain how they came to an understanding with GNP about the set, convincing them how important it was that it be complete. Apparently this is a joint release between La-La Land and GNP, which I assume means that GNP gets a cut of the profits.
Yeah, I listened to that quite greedily this afternoon. Wonderful, informative. I loved the notes about the people who contacted Bond, independently, to provide previously-unknown info, like the interviews from the Library of Congress project.

The La-la land people have been very specific from the get-go, about the level of cooperation from all the relevant companies, including GNP. I guess what I am specifically wondering, is if those two scores were paired on one CD with the idea that, sometime in the future, it might be issued as a stand-alone release. Either by La-la or by GNP. It seemed weird otherwise, to pair re-create GNP's disc. They didn't do that with Shore Leave & Naked Time, so why with these two?
They are paired because isn't this the production order?


-Chris
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Old November 27 2012, 05:09 AM   #437
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Kamdan wrote: View Post
Tallguy wrote: View Post
cbspock wrote: View Post
It would also be great to get the "trek style" music from the animated series next

-Chris
I'd love to be proven wrong, but my understanding is that those tapes no longer exist.

This isn't a bad runner-up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p03jG546GQc

There's also this http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Anim.../dp/B008JEQP7Q
They'd have to have the tapes to make a 5.1 audio track, which is where the YouTube video ripped the tracks from.
Not necessarily. With many of the old 70's and 80's animated series making their way to DVD, the existing, original audio mix of music, sound FX and dialogue is used to create the 5.1 audio. Oftentimes the companies releasing these new DVDs do not have the separate sound elements with which to create a brand new audio mix.
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Old November 27 2012, 05:12 AM   #438
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Christopher wrote: View Post
Between that and the "Blackship Theme" for Henoch, I'd say that Duning just saw it as part of his job to review what the other composers were doing and pick out relevant motifs. Perhaps he chose "Blackship" for Henoch because it was associated with an evil/altered Spock, and then picked out a bit of the "Amok Time" theme as a general Spock motif.
But doesn't that imply an unusual awareness of the contents of those episodes? Unusual for a composer of that time, I mean. I got the impression, I guess primarily from the interviews in Bond's book, that the composers didn't spend a lot of time watching the shows they scored for. Of course they watched the episodes they scored; but in general they didn't have time to watch a season's worth of episodes of a show.

Duning's choice of those motifs to re-use, seems to display almost a fan's sense of the contents of those episodes, the relevance of those cues. Compare his interpolation of cues, to Fried & Steiner & Courage & Kaplan. All of them used Courage's Enterprise theme for flyby's, which was required. And then – what? Fried & Steiner & Courage quoted themselves, but only themselves so far as I can tell. Kaplan wrote two entirely distinct scores, with no material shared between them (I think).

Isn't Duning unique among the Star Trek composers, in quoting from the others? (Except for the Enterprise theme.)
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Old November 27 2012, 05:17 AM   #439
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
Lets face it: I think we're all interested in pretty much everything.
Basically, yeah.

I'm glad December 4 is only a week off. I've finally finished saving up for this thing, and plan on ordering it on release day.

Of course, that still leaves the week or so for the mailman to bring it to me, but what the hell, I've waited this long.
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Old November 27 2012, 04:56 PM   #440
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
But doesn't that imply an unusual awareness of the contents of those episodes? Unusual for a composer of that time, I mean. I got the impression, I guess primarily from the interviews in Bond's book, that the composers didn't spend a lot of time watching the shows they scored for. Of course they watched the episodes they scored; but in general they didn't have time to watch a season's worth of episodes of a show.

Duning's choice of those motifs to re-use, seems to display almost a fan's sense of the contents of those episodes, the relevance of those cues. Compare his interpolation of cues, to Fried & Steiner & Courage & Kaplan. All of them used Courage's Enterprise theme for flyby's, which was required. And then – what? Fried & Steiner & Courage quoted themselves, but only themselves so far as I can tell. Kaplan wrote two entirely distinct scores, with no material shared between them (I think).

Isn't Duning unique among the Star Trek composers, in quoting from the others? (Except for the Enterprise theme.)
Well, I'd say that Courage's romantic theme for the Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident" is derived from Steiner's Romulan/Blackship Theme -- one sustained note, then three iterations of a descending pair with the third pair ending on the same note as the first, then a repetition of those three pairs, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the track list for that episode includes a note saying "Based on a theme by Fred Steiner" for that, the same way that Steiner's Enterprise theme is listed as "Based on a theme by Alexander Courage" since it's basically an inversion of the Courage fanfare.

As for Duning, yes, it's possible he watched the show; his "Return to Tomorrow" score was recorded a couple of months after "Mirror, Mirror" aired, and of course he didn't quote "Amok Time" until season 3. But it's also possible he just talked with his fellow composers about what they'd done, or with the producer or the music editor or whatever. Rather than being fannish, it could've simply been part of his process as a composer to compare notes in that way. It's unwise to read fan sentiment into professional work. I'm a Trek fan, of course, but when I write a Trek novel and incorporate ideas from other novels, I don't think of it as an expression of fandom, but as being thorough in my research -- or as saving myself work when I can find an existing idea I can use rather than having to come up with a new one. For all we know, Duning could've simply been so pressed for time that it was easier to ask if there were existing themes that would suit his purposes.
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Old November 28 2012, 04:48 PM   #441
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

We have an interview with the awesome Neil S. Bulk - one of the talented producers who worked on this set.

Plus - 5 new sample tracks hand-picked by Neil!
http://www.trekcore.com/merchandise/sttos_neilbulk.html
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Old November 28 2012, 05:18 PM   #442
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Good interview, and good cue selection. I'm stunned to learn that the Act-1 opening cue to "Catspaw," which I'd always assumed was a Fried arrangement of the Courage fanfare done for that episode and is one of my favorite versions of it, is actually a library cue by Courage himself. Some interesting bits of texture to discover in the other cues as well. "Aberrated Captain" was the cue I'm the least familiar with; I don't think it was ever reused outside of the "Enterprise Incident" teaser. It's got an unusual sound for TOS; it actually reminded me a bit of Lost in Space music at some points (not surprising, perhaps, since Courage did a few scores for LiS and other Irwin Allen shows).

My main question for Neil is: How do we know that the laserdiscs were accurate to the originals in their audio mix, pitch, etc.? Or are they just the closest approximation available?

And when are we going to see the next track list? There are still six discs remaining to cover, and there are only six days left until the release.
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Old November 28 2012, 06:19 PM   #443
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

The LDs were spot on as reference tracks. I had ways of confirming that. "Beyond Antares" was one of those ways.

LLL releases the track lists, not me.

The opening of "Catspaw" is tracked with the library cue. We have Fried's unused opening and closing. I think one note of his closing is used in the episode!

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Old November 28 2012, 06:20 PM   #444
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Sorry, I wasn't asking that last question of you specifically. I should've put them the other way around to make that clearer.

I'm really looking forward to finding out how many of the library-only cues are pieces I know. I know there's one cue, a somber one at the end of a third-season episode with no credited original music, that's never heard anywhere else, and I've always wondered what it was from. I figure it must be a library cue. (I can't remember what episode it was, though.)
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Old November 28 2012, 10:57 PM   #445
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

SEASON 2, DISC 5

I, Mudd
Music Composed and Conducted by Samuel Matlovsky
Episode #41, Recorded 9/22/67
Aired #37, 11/3/67

1. Main Title* (soprano version, second season mix; arr. Courage) 1:03
2006 Recording Conducted and Produced by Gregory Smith

2. Please*/You Listen M21/M23 1:25
3. Harry Mudd/Mudd’s Series M24/M25 1:00
4. Stella M31 0:44
5. Control Room M32 0:55
6. Eternal Beauty/Crew Gone M33/M36 0:42
7. We Are Real M40 1:12
8. A Gilded Cage/Not Programmed M41/M42 1:09
9. Mudd’s Farewell/Stella’s Reprise M43/M44 0:59
10. Alice in Wonderland M55 2:08
11. Love’s Hate M56 0:50
12. Tired of Happiness M62 1:26
13. The Last Straw M63 2:12
14. Mudd’s Detention/Stella 500 M65/M66 1:38

Total Time: 17:50

*Contains “Theme From Star Trek (TV Series)” by Alexander Courage and Gene Roddenberry

The Trouble With Tribbles
Music Composed and Conducted by Jerry Fielding
Episode #42, Recorded 10/5/67
Aired #44, 12/29/67

15. The Muzak Maker M16 0:55
16. They Quibble Over Tribble/Kirk Out M21+M21S/M31 0:58
17. The Scherzo Maker M34 0:44
18. Bartender Bit M35 0:28
19. Big Fite M36/M36A/M36B 2:15
20. A Matter of Pride/Barrel of Tribbles/Tribble Hooks Kirk/My Chicken Sandwich/Come on Spock!/Raining Tribbles M42/M43+M43S/M44/M44A+M44AS/M44B/M51/M51A+M51AS /M52/M54+M54S 4:03
21. Dead Heap!/Close That Door/Hissing Tribbles/Poor Jonesy/No Tribble at All M55/M56/M57/M63+M63S/M65 2:30

Total Time: 12:05

Second Season Library Music
Conducted by Alexander Courage
Recorded 6/16/67
Composed by Alexander Courage:

22. Ship in Orbit* (Big) LM6 0:39
23. Sad and Thoughtful on Captain’s Theme LM8 2:29
24. Captain Playoff No. 1 (Heavy) LM2 0:07
25. Smooth Neutral Ship Theme* LM7 0:39
26. Playoff on M.T. Theme LM1 0:21
27. Fight on Captain’s Theme LM5/LM5A 1:44
28. Captain Playoff No. 2 (Neutral—Slightly Ominous) LM3 0:07
29. Stingers LM17A/LM17B/LM17C/LM17D 0:50
30. New Sexy Exotic LM9 2:16
31. Captain Playoff No. 3 (Sad and Alone) LM4 0:19
32. Prime Specimen (“The Cage” M21–30) LM19 3:14
33. Monster Illusion (“The Cage” M42) LM18 2:33
34. Mr. Spock (“Captain’s Wig” From “The Naked Time” M54–61) LM16 3:26
35. The Big Go (“The Naked Time” M62) LM15 2:29

Composed by Fred Steiner:

36. Mudd’s Perfidy (“Mudd’s Women” M43) LM10A/LM10 0:33
37. Zap the Cap (“Charlie X” M53) LM11 1:33
38. Zap the Cap (“Charlie X” M53) LM11A tk 1 0:08
39. Zap the Cap (“Charlie X” M53) LM11A tk 2 0:05
40. Zap the Spaceship (“Charlie X” M54) LM12 1:28
41. Zap the Spaceship (“Charlie X” M54) LM12A 0:33
42. Zap the Spaceship (“Charlie X” M54) LM12B 0:07
43. Ruk Attacks (“What Are Little Girls Made Of?” M43A) LM13 1:40

Composed by Gerald Fried:

44. 2nd Ruth (“Shore Leave” M31A, orch. Gus Levene) LM14 2:35

Total Time (22–44): 30:43

Second Season Alternates and Outtakes

45. Neck Pinch Sweetener (“Catspaw” M61A) (Fried) 0:04
46. More Soup* (“Amok Time” M26–30/M26–30A) (Fried) 1:52
47. Resignation* (“Amok Time” M61A) (Fried) 0:08
48. Approach of the Enterprise* (“The Doomsday Machine” M11A) (Kaplan) 0:23
49. Approach of the Enterprise* (“The Doomsday Machine” M11A/M11S) (Kaplan, with Fred Steiner brass sweetener) 0:24
50. One’s Enough* (“The Doomsday Machine” M63A/M63) (Kaplan) 0:24
51. Shuttle Helpless (“Metamorphosis” M12A) (Duning) 0:38
52. Starship* (“Metamorphosis” M41 tk 2) (Duning) 0:14
53. Nancy Sobs* (“Metamorphosis” M51A) (Duning) 0:19
54. Nancy Sobs* (“Metamorphosis” M51B) (Duning) 0:10
55. You Loved Me (“Metamorphosis” M61A) (Duning) 0:20
56. Cochrane’s Decision* (“Metamorphosis” M62B) (Duning) 0:13
57. We Are Real (“I, Mudd” M40A) (Matlovsky) 1:11
58. No Tribble at All (“The Trouble With Tribbles” M65A) (Fielding) 0:13
59. Poor Jonesy (“The Trouble With Tribbles” M63, orchestra only) (Fielding) 0:29
60. Poor Jonesy (“The Trouble With Tribbles” M63S, trombone sweetener at recorded speed) (Fielding) 0:53
61. Tribbles FX (unused) (Matlovsky) 0:52

Total Time: 9:23

Amok Time
Source Music and Outtake
Composed and Conducted by Gerald Fried

62. Vulcan Lyre M25 0:06
63. Gong FX 0:12
64. Bells 0:22
65. Wind Chimes 0:36
66. Contrary Order (Gerald Fried rehearsal) M16–20 1:37

Total Time: 3:03

Total Disc Time: 73:26
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Old November 28 2012, 11:25 PM   #446
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Indysolo wrote: View Post
LLL releases the track lists, not me.
Hmmmmmm.

I didn't think there was any way that this could be better than I imagined.

Actually, I was thinking "Yes, I love the movie scores. And I certainly listen to the TOS scores I have. But do I really want ALL of it? Sure I want all of Where No Man Has Gone Before. And Charlie X, yes. But seriously, 17 hours?"

Now I'm thinking "This isn't coming FAST enough!!" The library cues alone are killing me! And those samples on TrekCore sound better than they do in the episodes.
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Old November 29 2012, 12:12 AM   #447
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Indysolo wrote: View Post
SEASON 2, DISC 5
Total Disc Time: 73:26
Awesome. Thanks again for posting these.

That's interesting, that we get the 2006 re-recording of the main title in this set. You guys weren't kidding when you said it would be everything. :-)

What's a "sweetener"? as in "brass sweetener" & "trombone sweetener"

Very interested to hear the Fried rehearsal.

Now that the listings of Steiner's music for By Any Other name and Fielding's music for Tribbles have both been posted, what cue is in By Any Other Name during the scene when Scotty & the Kelvan are drunk together?
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Old November 29 2012, 12:21 AM   #448
Indysolo
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
That's interesting, that we get the 2006 re-recording of the main title in this set. You guys weren't kidding when you said it would be everything. :-)
The 2006 re-recording is also on disc 5 of season 1. You can figure out where it will be on season 3.

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
What's a "sweetener"? as in "brass sweetener" & "trombone sweetener"
An additional overlay, recorded separately and dubbed in later. In the case of the "trombone sweetener" from Tribbles, they were an effect recorded in real time with the intention of being sped up to get a unique sound. We had the original real time takes and presented one of them on here as a bonus. If you know the score, it's really wild hearing it at the recorded speed.

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
Now that the listings of Steiner's music for By Any Other name and Fielding's music for Tribbles have both been posted, what cue is in By Any Other Name during the scene when Scotty & the Kelvan are drunk together?
"A Matter of Pride".

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Old November 29 2012, 12:49 AM   #449
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Both the scores on Disc 5 have had versions released before. A suite arrangement of cues from "I, Mudd" was on Label X's Star Trek Volume 2, arranged by Clyde Allen & Tony Bremner and conducted by Bremner. Cues that have not previously had a version released are:

Please*/You Listen
Harry Mudd
Control Room
Eternal Beauty/Crew Gone
We Are Real
A Gilded Cage/Not Programmed
Mudd’s Farewell/Stella’s Reprise
Love’s Hate
Mudd’s Detention

There have been two prior releases of music from "The Trouble With Tribbles." The second volume of Steiner-conducted re-recordings from Varese Sarabande included new performances of "A Matter of Pride," "No Tribble at All," and "Big Fite" (spelled "Big Fight"), and GNP's Best of Star Trek Vol. 1 featured 11-odd minutes from the original score. The only previously unreleased tracks from "Tribbles" are:

My Chicken Sandwich
Raining Tribbles
Close That Door

The GNP album did contain "The Muzak Maker" and "The Scherzo Maker" even though those were not included in the episode.

Typos on the GNP track list: "They Quibble Over Quibble" for "...Over Tribble"; "Barrel of Trouble" for "Barrel of Tribbles"; no exclamation point on "Come On Spock" or "Dead Heap."


Second Season Library Music
Conducted by Alexander Courage
Recorded 6/16/67
Composed by Alexander Courage:

22. Ship in Orbit* (Big) LM6 0:39
23. Sad and Thoughtful on Captain’s Theme LM8 2:29
24. Captain Playoff No. 1 (Heavy) LM2 0:07
25. Smooth Neutral Ship Theme* LM7 0:39
26. Playoff on M.T. Theme LM1 0:21
27. Fight on Captain’s Theme LM5/LM5A 1:44
28. Captain Playoff No. 2 (Neutral—Slightly Ominous) LM3 0:07
29. Stingers LM17A/LM17B/LM17C/LM17D 0:50
30. New Sexy Exotic LM9 2:16
31. Captain Playoff No. 3 (Sad and Alone) LM4 0:19
These should be interesting. Let's see, we know from the sample released today that "Ship in Orbit" is the Act 1 opening for "Catspaw." "Sad and Thoughtful on Captain's Theme" is probably the music that plays under Kirk's climactic speech in "Mirror, Mirror." "Fight on Captain's Theme" is a cue that I believe is also in MM (and maybe "Journey to Babel" when Thelev attacks Kirk?). I look forward to discovering what the others are.


Amok Time
Source Music and Outtake
Composed and Conducted by Gerald Fried

62. Vulcan Lyre M25 0:06
63. Gong FX 0:12
64. Bells 0:22
65. Wind Chimes 0:36
66. Contrary Order (Gerald Fried rehearsal) M16–20 1:37
Great Bird of the Galaxy, you guys are thorough! It never even occurred to me to think of those as source music. And rehearsal audio? Interesting. Might we hear the composer's voice?

On to season 3! Given that there was less new music in that season, it should be interesting to see what fills out the set.
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Old November 29 2012, 03:38 AM   #450
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Christopher wrote: View Post
"Aberrated Captain" was the cue I'm the least familiar with; I don't think it was ever reused outside of the "Enterprise Incident" teaser.
It was definitely reused in "The Way To Eden" (right between the "jam session" and the Enterprise veering off course to Eden. It may have been reused another time; I thought maybe "Plato's Stepchildren" but that was a scored episode so I'm not sure...
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