RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,551
Posts: 5,401,489
Members: 24,860
Currently online: 493
Newest member: Jacob4546

TrekToday headlines

Mystery Mini Vinyl Figure Display Box
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

The Red Shirt Diaries Episode Five
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

Shatner In Trek 3? Well Maybe
By: T'Bonz on Sep 28

Retro Review: Shadows and Symbols
By: Michelle on Sep 27

Meyer: Revitalizing Star Trek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 26

Trek Costumes To Be Auctioned
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25

Hulu Snaps up Abrams-Produced Drama
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25

Abrams To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Sep 24

Trek 3 Casting Rumor Reactions
By: T'Bonz on Sep 24

Trek Comics Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 25 2012, 03:47 AM   #136
UFO
Captain
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
@UFO

I'm not going to argue with you about this. Like I mentioned before, we just have different views.
No need to argue. I wanted to finish stating the reasons I have for the delineation I have made. Moreover I am honestly interested in what specifically, for example, makes Star Wars (any of the six films really) fantasy rather than SF? I get that the "Force" (in isolation) is a fantasy element (though I am not certain it has to be in the context of the films) and obviously its more than a religion, but is there anything else? However, if you are simply finished with the topic, I respect that decision.


There is something you said that I find so incredulous that I do feel the need to say that it's just "off."

UFO wrote:
... Also, SF is known for examining the human condition in different environments. It isn't often anyone says that about fantasy, even though it may happen...
Really? I think fantasy examines the human condition quite a bit, and it is often our first way of examining the human condition and learning lessons. Ever read a children's book/fairytale? That's fantasy, and there's usually some kind of lesson to be learned about what the characters go through. From Dr. Seuss to Lord of the Rings, I think fantasy does a pretty good job of examining the human condition, and whether you notice or not, people say that a lot...
I imagine what you say is correct in the same it is about fiction general, but SF has a reputation for isolating and highlighting issues, not just by commenting on them, but by lifting them out of their everyday baggage and connections so we can see them more clearly.

If you believe fantasy has the same reputation, in that particular way, I will accept your statement, unless I hear evidence to the contrary. However it doesn't seem that fantasy is either as well equipped or as "focused" on such an activity generally.
UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2012, 08:21 PM   #137
Spock/Uhura Fan
Captain
 
Spock/Uhura Fan's Avatar
 
Location: Where It's At.
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

UFO wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
@UFO

I'm not going to argue with you about this. Like I mentioned before, we just have different views.
No need to argue. I wanted to finish stating the reasons I have for the delineation I have made. Moreover I am honestly interested in what specifically, for example, makes Star Wars (any of the six films really) fantasy rather than SF? I get that the "Force" (in isolation) is a fantasy element (though I am not certain it has to be in the context of the films) and obviously its more than a religion, but is there anything else? However, if you are simply finished with the topic, I respect that decision.
Yes, I am pretty much finished, but I will give a quick reply. This thread started out about one thing and has now moved into a Star Wars/What makes Sci-Fi discussion, lol.

I don't want to type much, so I'm going to use your description of science fiction and apply it to Star Wars.

UFO wrote:
1) If the work is supposed to be based on a scientific framework in some way then its SF (either sci-fi, hard SF or something in between.)
I would say that the framework or premise of Star Wars, although it has sci-fi elements, is the force and all 6 movies are about the ultimate goal of restoring balance to "the force." For all intents and purposes, the force is a fantasy element, and therefore the basis of the story is rooted in fantasy and not sci-fi.

You mentioned with light sabers, that someone or some theory has come along several years after the making of the first films to retroactively jimmy-rig a way for them to be a sci-fi element. Okay, but that seems like a bit of a cheat to me. Why? Because, someone could have written a book 200 years ago about a man that could walk into a room, and with the clap of his hands, there'd be light. And if that's all they say, then that's fantasy. They've provided no scientifically plausible way for this to happen. So, if somewhere down the line at the end of the 20th century the "clap-on, clap-off, The Clapper" is invented, that doesn't retroactively make that 200 year old book science fiction.

On the other hand, you can have a book like Frankenstein, where the creature/corpse is brought to life using electricity, and what do you know... the modern day use of defibrillators... That's all I'm saying.

If people want to call Star Wars science fiction, then okay. It doesn't really bother me however people want to describe it. I just know what it (all 6 movies) looked like to me. I'm not saying there was no sci-fi involved; it's just that the story wasn't told from that angle to me.

EDIT: You asked if there were other things (besides light sabers and the force), and yes, there are.

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote:
There is something you said that I find so incredulous that I do feel the need to say that it's just "off."
UFO wrote:
... Also, SF is known for examining the human condition in different environments. It isn't often anyone says that about fantasy, even though it may happen...
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote:
Really? I think fantasy examines the human condition quite a bit, and it is often our first way of examining the human condition and learning lessons. Ever read a children's book/fairytale? That's fantasy, and there's usually some kind of lesson to be learned about what the characters go through. From Dr. Seuss to Lord of the Rings, I think fantasy does a pretty good job of examining the human condition, and whether you notice or not, people say that a lot...
I imagine what you say is correct in the same it is about fiction general, but SF has a reputation for isolating and highlighting issues, not just by commenting on them, but by lifting them out of their everyday baggage and connections so we can see them more clearly.

If you believe fantasy has the same reputation, in that particular way, I will accept your statement, unless I hear evidence to the contrary. However it doesn't seem that fantasy is either as well equipped or as "focused" on such an activity generally.
I definitely think science fiction fans see science fiction that way. I'm not sure about everybody else. There are, I'm sure, science fiction stories that do this, but there are stories in other genres, including fantasy, that do this very well, and, in general, better. Fantasy is more accessible than sci-fi, imo, and the "everyday baggage and connections" are what people can relate to, so fantasy often can do a better job of reaching people. Sci-fi, in the way you've described it (and in the way pure sci-fi is), can come off as professorial and clinical and like it's lecturing... But different strokes for different folks.

I still say no matter what the genre, it's the storytelling that counts.

And now, I'm ready to move on.
__________________
MA'AM. Hot damn, I can dig it.

“The history of men's opposition to women's emancipation is more interesting perhaps than the story of that emancipation itself.” - Virginia Woolf
Spock/Uhura Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2012, 10:47 PM   #138
serenitytrek1
Commander
 
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

I think we can all rest easy,Quinto will be back for one more film or atleast he will quit after the third film.

Anyway...JJ wanted to make a triology.
serenitytrek1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2012, 10:54 PM   #139
Jackson_Roykirk
Commodore
 
Jackson_Roykirk's Avatar
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

I think basically the common movie goer wants to see films that are fun and entertaining. And it just so happens that the trend in fun and entertaining films being made today are the sci-fi/fantasy/superhero films. I don't think movie goers are "huge sci-fi/fantasy fans" in common sense of the term, but instead they just like to see fun films.

That's why I do NOT think any harm is being done to this film by Abrams secrecy. The vast majority of the fans who actually care about the secrecy will see it anyway -- secrecy or no secrecy. The rest of the movie-goers (the general population of average movie fans) don't care that much about movie hype 6 months out anyway. They only say to themselves and their friends "what looks like a fun movie that we can see this week".

...And sci-fi/fantasy/superhero films usually look to be the most fun to the average movie-goer (sci-fi fan or not).
Jackson_Roykirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2012, 11:32 PM   #140
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

Jackson_Roykirk wrote: View Post
That's why I do NOT think any harm is being done to this film by Abrams secrecy. The vast majority of the fans who actually care about the secrecy will see it anyway -- secrecy or no secrecy. The rest of the movie-goers (the general population of average movie fans) don't care that much about movie hype 6 months out anyway. They only say to themselves and their friends "what looks like a fun movie that we can see this week".

...And sci-fi/fantasy/superhero films usually look to be the most fun to the average movie-goer (sci-fi fan or not).
Sounds about right to me. I suspect we sometimes overestimate of the importance of the fannish echo chamber. It's a fun way to waste time and chat among ourselves, but I doubt it has much impact on the rest of the world.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2012, 05:01 PM   #141
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

I think the conversation for the last few pages is why it's best to just look at the Genre as Speculative Fiction, rather than trying to pigeon hole it into Fantasy, SciFi, Superhero, Action/Adventure, Horror, Space Opera....

Even Pigeon Holing a story/Franchise into one of those categories, you still end up bleeding into others.

Pretty much, all of these sub-categories of Speculative Fiction have the aim to examine The Human Condition within the boundaries of the created world.
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2012, 06:06 PM   #142
Spock/Uhura Fan
Captain
 
Spock/Uhura Fan's Avatar
 
Location: Where It's At.
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

I've never heard of the "Speculative Fiction" genre before, and I'm not sure what good it does to group everything under that. To me, still, it's the storytelling that counts.
__________________
MA'AM. Hot damn, I can dig it.

“The history of men's opposition to women's emancipation is more interesting perhaps than the story of that emancipation itself.” - Virginia Woolf
Spock/Uhura Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2012, 06:16 PM   #143
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
I've never heard of the "Speculative Fiction" genre before, and I'm not sure what good it does to group everything under that. To me, still, it's the storytelling that counts.
Oh, people have been throwing "Speculative Fiction" around as an alternative definition for SF since at least the seventies, and maybe even the sixties. Not sure it ever caught on outside of academic circles . . . .
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2012, 06:33 PM   #144
Spock/Uhura Fan
Captain
 
Spock/Uhura Fan's Avatar
 
Location: Where It's At.
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
I've never heard of the "Speculative Fiction" genre before, and I'm not sure what good it does to group everything under that. To me, still, it's the storytelling that counts.
Oh, people have been throwing "Speculative Fiction" around as an alternative definition for SF since at least the seventies, and maybe even the sixties. Not sure it ever caught on outside of academic circles . . . .
Oh, okay. Do you know why anyone felt the need to come up with that term? Something tells me that bookstores and iTunes aren't going to have a speculative fiction section anytime soon, especially if it's grouping a bunch of other genres together.
__________________
MA'AM. Hot damn, I can dig it.

“The history of men's opposition to women's emancipation is more interesting perhaps than the story of that emancipation itself.” - Virginia Woolf
Spock/Uhura Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2012, 06:50 PM   #145
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
I've never heard of the "Speculative Fiction" genre before, and I'm not sure what good it does to group everything under that. To me, still, it's the storytelling that counts.
Oh, people have been throwing "Speculative Fiction" around as an alternative definition for SF since at least the seventies, and maybe even the sixties. Not sure it ever caught on outside of academic circles . . . .
Oh, okay. Do you know why anyone felt the need to come up with that term? Something tells me that bookstores and iTunes aren't going to have a speculative fiction section anytime soon, especially if it's grouping a bunch of other genres together.
Because of the bickering about if something is Fantasy with a bit of SciFi, or SciFi with a bit of Fantasy, or Horror with a bit of SciFi.....
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2012, 06:57 PM   #146
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

Well, I can't remember who coined the term, or every critical essay I read thirty-plus years ago, but I suspect the idea was to come up with a more inclusive label that acknowledged that there was more to "science fiction" than just the whole John W. Campbell Astonishing/Analog school of nuts-and-bolts sf. There was also Bradbury and Edgar Rice Burroughs and Sturgeon and Ellison and Spinrad and Silverberg and Delany and LeGuin and Russ and so on, whose work was arguably more about the "fiction" than the "science."
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com

Last edited by Greg Cox; November 26 2012 at 07:37 PM.
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2012, 08:27 PM   #147
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Well, I can't remember who coined the term, or every critical essay I read thirty-plus years ago, but I suspect the idea was to come up with a more inclusive label that acknowledged that there was more to "science fiction" than just the whole John W. Campbell Astonishing/Analog school of nuts-and-bolts sf. There was also Bradbury and Edgar Rice Burroughs and Sturgeon and Ellison and Spinrad and Silverberg and Delany and LeGuin and Russ and so on, whose work was arguably more about the "fiction" than the "science."
I know that Ellison favored the term at least as early as the first Dangerous Visions (1968), if not before, and it's believed that the term may have been coined by Heinlein in the late 1940s.
__________________
The motto of the Corbettite Order seems to be Ite Animose... a Latin phrase that can be translated as "go courageously." Alternatively, it can be rendered as "boldly go," which bears a striking resemblance to a phrase heard during the opening credits of a certain popular television series.
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2012, 08:42 PM   #148
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Well, I can't remember who coined the term, or every critical essay I read thirty-plus years ago, but I suspect the idea was to come up with a more inclusive label that acknowledged that there was more to "science fiction" than just the whole John W. Campbell Astonishing/Analog school of nuts-and-bolts sf. There was also Bradbury and Edgar Rice Burroughs and Sturgeon and Ellison and Spinrad and Silverberg and Delany and LeGuin and Russ and so on, whose work was arguably more about the "fiction" than the "science."
I know that Ellison favored the term at least as early as the first Dangerous Visions (1968), if not before, and it's believed that the term may have been coined by Heinlein in the late 1940s.
Interesting. My money would have been on Moorcock, not Heinlein.

Boy, this whole discussion takes me back. Next we'll be debating the "New Wave" . . .
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2012, 08:53 PM   #149
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Well, I can't remember who coined the term, or every critical essay I read thirty-plus years ago, but I suspect the idea was to come up with a more inclusive label that acknowledged that there was more to "science fiction" than just the whole John W. Campbell Astonishing/Analog school of nuts-and-bolts sf. There was also Bradbury and Edgar Rice Burroughs and Sturgeon and Ellison and Spinrad and Silverberg and Delany and LeGuin and Russ and so on, whose work was arguably more about the "fiction" than the "science."
I know that Ellison favored the term at least as early as the first Dangerous Visions (1968), if not before, and it's believed that the term may have been coined by Heinlein in the late 1940s.
Interesting. My money would have been on Moorcock, not Heinlein.
Arguments could be made for even earlier origins, apparently*.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Boy, this whole discussion takes me back. Next we'll be debating the "New Wave" . . .
That's a debate I'll leave to others, I think. The more labels and definitions people come up with, the fuzzier and more wiggly the lines get between this, that, and the other. I'm quite happy to be lazy and let it all be speculative fiction, really - that's descriptive enough for me.


* Link stolen from Wiki article on Speculative fiction
__________________
The motto of the Corbettite Order seems to be Ite Animose... a Latin phrase that can be translated as "go courageously." Alternatively, it can be rendered as "boldly go," which bears a striking resemblance to a phrase heard during the opening credits of a certain popular television series.

Last edited by M'Sharak; November 26 2012 at 08:59 PM. Reason: link
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2012, 09:10 PM   #150
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: is "Into Darkness" Quinto's last as Spock?

That's basically my attitude, too. Never much seen the point in trying to fit everything into neat little boxes.

I'm intrigued to find out that "Speculative Fiction" dates back so far. I would have guessed the late sixties at the earliest . . . .
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:26 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.