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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old November 23 2012, 11:23 PM   #16
Andrew_Kearley
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

I don't see any need for conflict between Star Trek and Star Wars. I manage to like and enjoy both of them without any difficulty or internal turmoil.

Mind you, Space: 1999 is superior to both!
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Old November 24 2012, 05:35 AM   #17
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

I agree the war between Star Trek and Star Wars is silly, but in this thread I don't think anybody is bashing Star Trek or Star Wars. We're having a more friendly debate about it than most geeks are stereotypically capable of.

I don't think both starting with 'Star' is the reason they are compared. They are the two most loved and obsessed-over science fiction franchises in the world and they've both gone through several phases of completely different creative approaches. Gene Roddenberry's version of Star Trek versus Ron Moore's versus Rick Berman's, or 1970s George Lucas vs 1990s George Lucas vs Disney vs all the novel and video game writers aiming at a far higher age range than Lucas ever wanted to. Star Trek isn't all the same Star Trek and Star Wars isn't all the same Star Wars.

Out of all I prefer Ron Moore's Star Trek first and 1970's George Lucas Star Wars second.
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Old November 24 2012, 02:39 PM   #18
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

There is no "Ron Moore's Star Trek." Ron Moore was a writer who wrote several dozen Trek episodes (plus two movies) under someone else's supervision. He never called the shots as far as the series was concerned, nothing we saw on Trek was "his vision."
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Old November 25 2012, 04:04 PM   #19
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

I see both as iconic in scifi but they take very different approaches. SW is a conflict between good and evil. This is often done really well using classic allegories of father and son, freedom vs oppression and so on. ST is about growth and exploration, self discovery and the potential of mankind.

As far as a war between the two galaxies. I see the Empire winning early on due to their overwhelming military might but as pointed out already the Federation would forge alliances with the Rebel Alliance and most likely with the other nations of the Milky way galaxy ie Klingons, Romulans,ect... This collation would eventually prove decisive as each faction shares its strengths. so you would end up with Constitution or Galaxy class star ships with cloaks launching x-wing fighters at Imperial soft targets spreading the Empires forces so thin that they could be soundly defeated in a turning point battle.
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Old November 25 2012, 08:34 PM   #20
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

Terran wrote: View Post
His reasoning being that Star Wars is better because it caters to a wider audience, has a larger budget and better CGI.
Those are reasons why Star Wars is more profitable. (You could also add, Star Wars has more kid appeal, which is a big boost to toy sales, where the real money is.) I doubt Disney would have paid $4 billion for the rights to Star Trek. But noneof that has any bearing on inherent quality.

Neither is superior to the other, since both can be done well or poorly. At the most basic level, Star Trek is about ideas and Star Wars is about emotion. People are more likely to seek out emotional experiences in their entertainment, so Star Wars is more profitable. But there's nothing bad about that.

Another distinction is that Star Wars' strengths are movie strenghts - visuals, action, emotion - and Star Trek's strengths are TV strengths - ideas, character, complex plotlines and themes, modern day parallels.

So when you turn Star Trek into a movie, it naturally must get more Star Warsy. But the reverse is also true - The Clone Wars has more detailed and convincing character psychology and political plotlines than I've ever seen in Star Wars before, and in fact, it's better than much of Star Trek (though still well below DS9's standard.)
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Old November 26 2012, 03:05 AM   #21
sonak
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Terran wrote: View Post
His reasoning being that Star Wars is better because it caters to a wider audience, has a larger budget and better CGI.
Those are reasons why Star Wars is more profitable. (You could also add, Star Wars has more kid appeal, which is a big boost to toy sales, where the real money is.) I doubt Disney would have paid $4 billion for the rights to Star Trek. But noneof that has any bearing on inherent quality.

Neither is superior to the other, since both can be done well or poorly. At the most basic level, Star Trek is about ideas and Star Wars is about emotion. People are more likely to seek out emotional experiences in their entertainment, so Star Wars is more profitable. But there's nothing bad about that.

Another distinction is that Star Wars' strengths are movie strenghts - visuals, action, emotion - and Star Trek's strengths are TV strengths - ideas, character, complex plotlines and themes, modern day parallels.

So when you turn Star Trek into a movie, it naturally must get more Star Warsy. But the reverse is also true - The Clone Wars has more detailed and convincing character psychology and political plotlines than I've ever seen in Star Wars before, and in fact, it's better than much of Star Trek (though still well below DS9's standard.)

this is a good analysis.
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Old November 26 2012, 03:51 PM   #22
Maniarek
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

[QUOTE=Temis the Vorta;7302142]
Terran wrote: View Post
profitable. But there's nothing bad about that.

Another distinction is that Star Wars' strengths are movie strenghts - visuals, action, emotion - and Star Trek's strengths are TV strengths - ideas, character, complex plotlines and themes, modern day parallels.
Agreed & well said. That's why it's hard to compare the two. I'd love to see a thread comparing TNG and/or DS9 to Battlestar Galactica!

But if I had to choose, I'd have to say I'm much more drawn into the Star Trek universe because of the richness of the characters like Data & Odo & the stories related to humanity, identity, etc.

Of course Star Wars is great but it's more of a less serious action-adventure type entertainment (as you had correctly pointed out) that the casual viewer can enjoy. Star Trek is for more serious & hardcore sci-fi fans in my opinion as there is more to follow & watch.

Last edited by Maniarek; November 27 2012 at 03:35 AM.
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Old November 26 2012, 03:57 PM   #23
Maniarek
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

teacake wrote: View Post
I like both kinds of music.
I think none of the Star Wars music comes even close to Jerry Goldsmith's First Contact theme.
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Old November 26 2012, 05:19 PM   #24
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

teacake wrote: View Post
The ONLY reason these two keep getting pitted against each other is that they each start with the word Star.

This is why Stargate cleverly used the star word as the first syllable rather than the first word. To avoid these retarded comparisons.
I guess its human nature to compare things with similarities--no matter how light.

For decades, we watched fans and media talking heads compare:

Star Trek v. Star Wars.
in the first half of the 1970s, it was Star Trek v. Space:1999.
DC Comics v. Marvel Comics.
The Beatles v. The Rolling Stones.
Michael Jackson v. Prince (which said something else, as you could not find more dissimilar musical acts).
American Idol v. America's Got Talent.
Babylon 5 v. Deep Space 9.
Alien v. Predator--before that became a reality.
Superman v. Captain Marvel (nevermind National's lawsuit against Fawcett Comics).

...and so on.

Most on this list have few to no similarities and are very much their own animal, but like kids, the "my _______is better than yours" crap turns everything into a ego/competition exercise.

Much nonsense.
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Old November 26 2012, 08:01 PM   #25
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

This is the appropriate place to once again bring up David Brin's "Star Wars is fascist" argument.

The funny thing is, I agree with his analysis but don't think it's a condemnation of Star Wars - but rather evidence that people like fascism enough to spend money on it. And what's the harm, they're buying toys and movie tickets, not voting for political candidates. Let them indulge in a little power-fantasy fascism, it's just for fun. (And then make them watch an equal amount of Star Trek as the antidote.)

If Lucas had embraced the inherent fascism of his creation rather than running away from it, the prequels wold have been much better. He should have recognized that Darth Vader was the most popular of the OT characters back when the movies were first released (something I'm old enough to remember first hand) because of the fascistic appeal of unchecked power.

Anakin should have been cool like Vader was cool. He could still be chucked in he volcano at the end as his comeuppance, so that the overall message is, "fascism is bad, mkay?" but it would have been fun to watch him up till that point.

Sabotaging him by making him a whiney weakling was the worst thing Lucas could have done. But if Star Wars is best handled by fascists, Lucas selling out to Disney bodes very well for the franchise's health.
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Old December 7 2012, 07:06 AM   #26
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

Well, one thing that can be said for the Star Trek world is that it can give hope that what we know in the here and now isn't where it will all end. Star Wars is in a galaxy FAR FAR away. Star Trek is in the HERE, just not now. It shows how it is possible for the problems of the twenty and twenty-first centuries to eventually become obsolete. So in essence, one big draw for Trek is the HOPE that humanity can grow and not just eliminate ourselves through war and intolerance.
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Old December 7 2012, 06:00 PM   #27
JRoss
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

Farscape is the best science fiction franchise, so this argument is invalid. And Firefly managed to do what neither of the "Star" franchises ever did by never having a bad episode. Also BSG before New Caprica.
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Old December 7 2012, 06:30 PM   #28
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

Firefly had so few episodes, how can you compare it to shows that ran for years? maybe the bad episodes were still to come.

And if episode quality is the measure you're using, then Farscape couldn't be in the running because that show was all over the map in terms of quality.
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Old December 7 2012, 06:54 PM   #29
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
4) Star Trek doesn't rely on planet-destruction to make you root against the bad guy.


JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Reasons Star Wars is better than Star Trek?

3) More straightforward entertainment, designed around action and adrenaline.
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Old December 7 2012, 08:16 PM   #30
Xhiandra
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Re: Age old discussion, Star Trek vs. Star Wars

Terran wrote: View Post
So I was having this ol' debate with a friend the other day, my friend being a Star Wars fan. His reasoning being that Star Wars is better because it caters to a wider audience, has a larger budget and better CGI. But for me, he just isn't getting it. Trek is just so much more involving for me. Not only is there much much more content out there to experience, but its reflection of real world issues, and its cultural diversity make it for me. I don't think I need to even point out that Star Wars has Jar Jar.

So, I wonder how many reasons we can come up with that Star Trek is better than Star Wars (or the other way round perhaps, for arguments sake).
1) The debate is silly.
The only thing those shows have in common is the word "Star"; therefore, the only people qualified to draw parallels are all called Matt Groening.
On account of lulziness.

2) Your friend's arguments are really terrible.
- Popularity? If popularity equals quality, Lady Gaga is a better composer than Beethoven; Transformers 2 & Titanic better movies than Citizen Kane & 12 Angry Men; Green Day a better band than Dissection (obviously impossible, as Storm of the Light's Bane is perfection in musical form); a coloured square into another coloured square (contemporary paintings are often that ridiculous - and people gobble them up) better painting than Bruegel's The Tower of Babel.
If there's any correlation between popularity and quality, it's inverse, not direct.

- Quality of the CGI?
If he judges a movie solely on its CGI, he's going to miss out on a lot of great movies with no CGI whatsoever.
I'm also not certain the CGI quality is better in Wars: ENT had some very good CGI.

- Budget?
Seriously?

With the exception of some specific genres of movies (porn, action, martial arts,...), plot and dialogue should be the measuring stick of quality and on that front, Wars' manichean fare doesn't rate high.

3) Some of your own arguments are invalid, notably the Jar Jar one: Star Wars has Jar Jar, Star Trek has Neelix.
I've never seen any Wars movie in its entirety, but I highly doubt Jar Jar is worse than Neelix.
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