TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[Hartzilla2007]

Christopher wrote:

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I'm not sure I want Data to return to the Enterprise. He's a being of immense potential; does it really serve him well as a character to keep him stuck in the same role in the same place for decades?

Christopher you should know by now that obsessive trek fans don't care about a character's potential. They just want to see them do the same thing over and over and over again so they can have to same group of characters together for all eternity even if it stopped making since decades before

[Paper Moon]

KingDaniel wrote:

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I thought this too at first, but as Christopher remimded me...

In Countdown, Data tells Spock...

"A more apt description would be a simple "return," denoting the fact that my neural nets were successfully imprinted onto B-4's existing programming."

...something Persistence of Memory explicitly contradicts by saying B-4 wasn't advanced enough to support Data's programs and memories, and the download from Star Trek Nemesis actually eventually led to a slow-motion cascade faliure in B-4.

Yeah, I more meant in terms of big-picture stuff, mainly

Data becoming captain of the Enterprise.

(Nor do I think TPoM is

setting Worf up to be a Klingon general.)

Christopher wrote:

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And Paper Moon, I'm surprised it felt like a downer to you. I found it a rather optimistic book, aside from one character's fate.

This:

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Christopher you should know by now that obsessive trek fans don't care about a character's potential. They just want to see them do the same thing over and over and over again so they can have to same group of characters together for all eternity even if it stopped making since decades before

I mean, also, on reflection, I do realize that my misconception about the

Data thread

not being not continued in the rest of the trilogy really colored my perception of the overall book. I just read the first page, well, actually, the Historian's Note for Silent Weapons, so I know he continues to be a focus.

As I said, it really sucks when you think that a particular plot element stands a real chance of never getting resolved, and you don't like where it's been left. (For example, see people's reactions to the Ascendant arc at the end of DS9-R, Sisko's position in RBoE or, heck, Janeway's death in Before Dishonor. With the [glaring] exception of the former, all of these caused quite a stir because it looked like they would never be followed up on.) I was worried that Mr. Mack

resurrected Data

to have him available for further, not-yet-contracted stories. So it was like,

Oh yay! Data's back! Aaaaannd he's gone again. Great.

And on some level, yeah, I want *The Character* back on the Enterprise. Even if he's still

Data 2.0,

I want to see him interacting with Picard, Worf, Crusher, La Forge, the newbies... it may not be as plausible in terms of character development, but there's a good chance it'll be a helluva lot more fun, at least, for me.

So I would say my downer about *The Character* were more a result of his

being different (sorry! his being different is still a reminder of his predecessor's death!)

and of his brief appearance, which I misconceptualized as being his only appearance.

As for Choudhury's death: it's a downer to lose her, but it's also a downer to lose Worf. We kinda had a Worf 2.0 thing going too, for a while. A well-adjusted, happy Worf. Looks like that's gone, too. Which probably means that the fantastic relationship he had with Picard is going to change, maybe for the worse, maybe not. So it's a downer to see that in the air, too.

It's a downer to lose Soong, as ambiguous as he is. Data finally would get a chance to know his father, but no. His return requires his father's sacrifice. So that's a downer.

It's a downer for Soong's original replacement body for Data to have been destroyed by the Borg. Reopening just a bit of the Destiny wound there. It's also a downer that Data (appears) to have permanently lost his mother. (Though I recognize that the door is left open for her to reappear later. However, the conceit is that we're supposed to belief she's dead-dead-dead [as opposed to just dead-dead].)

(Heh, while I'm at it: it's a downer that Spot's getting old!)

I realize these reactions are highly personalized ones to valid editorial and story-telling decisions. And I can see how the book is, in many ways, optimistic. (For Chrissake,

Data's effing back!!)

And it makes me very happy that Mr. Mack decided to tell a bold new story. It just struck some of the wrong chords with me. (And I know that that is totally, "it's not you, it's me." )

[Christopher]

This deep into the review thread, I don't think we need to use spoiler boxes anymore. There is a spoiler warning in the thread title, after all. And these subjects have been discussed in the clear earlier in the thread.

Paper Moon wrote:

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It's a downer to lose Soong, as ambiguous as he is. Data finally would get a chance to know his father, but no. His return requires his father's sacrifice. So that's a downer.

But he has his father's memories within him now. That's a heck of a way to get to know someone.

It's a downer for Soong's original replacement body for Data to have been destroyed by the Borg.

Why? His new one is better.

It's also a downer that Data (appears) to have permanently lost his mother. (Though I recognize that the door is left open for her to reappear later. However, the conceit is that we're supposed to belief she's dead-dead-dead [as opposed to just dead-dead].)

Huh? You really, really need to reread the last page of the book.

[Paper Moon]

Christopher wrote:

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This deep into the review thread, I don't think we need to use spoiler boxes anymore. There is a spoiler warning in the thread title, after all. And these subjects have been discussed in the clear earlier in the thread.

Heh, yeah, that's true. Looking back at that post, I did get a touch spoiler tag-happy.

But he has his father's memories within him now. That's a heck of a way to get to know someone.

A fair point, but still, as this novel went to great lengths to point out, a person is more than the collection of their memories.

Also, I know this is a bit selfish of me, but I wouldn't mind seeing Data get to know his father, through interaction and conversation. Maybe we'll get peeks into Data's thought processes, see him consult his father's memories, but I'm not optimistic.

Still, I definitely grant your point.

Why? His new one is better.

Sorry, it's a downer that it happened in the first place, because it meant that Soong had to give up his own body. All-in-all, everyone would've been happier if the original Data 2.0 body hadn't been destroyed.

Huh? You really, really need to reread the last page of the book.

Done. Yeah, I realize that Data believes that Vaslovik is still alive, and that he's gonna go looking for him, with the goal of learning how to revive Lal. But all Data says about his mother is that she was revived by Vaslovik sometime around '75. He says nothing about going to look for her, and if he thinks she is alive, he doesn't seem to care. (Which seems out of character for both Data and Soong, leading me to think he doesn't think she's alive.)

I just reread chapter 22 (where Soong visits the former location of Vaslovik's mansion). The way I'm reading it, Soong is deluding himself by not considering the possibility that either or both of them are dead. It's unclear if there is a limit to what Vaslovik/Flint/Akharin can actually withstand (could survive in a vacuum? As the target of a nuclear weapon? A direct shot with a quantum torpedo?), but let's assume he could survive anything, including the shockwaves of a quantum torpedo's impact. (Hey, he survived WWIII.)

Juliana may not be so lucky. As we have seen time and again (most obviously in Nemesis), android bodies are highly durable but are not indestructible. It seems very plausible to me that Vaslovik could've survived the wholesale destruction of his mansion at the hands of the Borg, but that Juliana['s body] could not.

(As for Soong's relief at not finding bodies, very simple: being so close to the epicenter of a Borg energy bolt, Juliana simply vaporized into all that much more dust. Akharin, on the other hand, being able to survive anything, survives and leaves.)

What am I missing, Christopher?

[zarkon]

Paper Moon wrote:

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I just reread chapter 22 (where Soong visits the former location of Vaslovik's mansion). The way I'm reading it, Soong is deluding himself by not considering the possibility that either or both of them are dead. It's unclear if there is a limit to what Vaslovik/Flint/Akharin can actually withstand (could survive in a vacuum? As the target of a nuclear weapon? A direct shot with a quantum torpedo?), but let's assume he could survive anything, including the shockwaves of a quantum torpedo's impact. (Hey, he survived WWIII.)

Juliana may not be so lucky. As we have seen time and again (most obviously in Nemesis), android bodies are highly durable but are not indestructible. It seems very plausible to me that Vaslovik could've survived the wholesale destruction of his mansion at the hands of the Borg, but that Juliana['s body] could not.

(As for Soong's relief at not finding bodies, very simple: being so close to the epicenter of a Borg energy bolt, Juliana simply vaporized into all that much more dust. Akharin, on the other hand, being able to survive anything, survives and leaves.)

What am I missing, Christopher?

For myself I assumed that Flint burned all evidence of his existence there and left, and on rereading and seeing the words "abandoned", "where they might have gone" and "They've left me nothing to follow", I'm puzzled as to how you came to a different conclusion.

[JWolf]

David Mack wrote:

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I just want to pop in and thank everyone who has bought this book so far — you've helped it to debut at #30 on the Nov. 18, 2012, New York Times extended list for mass-market paperback fiction. Your support has helped me become, after more than a decade of writing books, a "New York Times bestselling author." And for that, I thank you.

Congratulations! Happy to help get you to NYT bestselling status. It's been too long since a Trek book was on the list.

[JWolf]

Mage wrote:

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Because it's a nice thing to do, thanks to all who haven't and spoiled stuff for others

Given that the thread title contains (spoilers), you don't actually need a spoiler tag. It's up to the readers to decide if they want to risk being spoiled or not.

[Defcon]

JWolf wrote:

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Congratulations! Happy to help get you to NYT bestselling status. It's been too long since a Trek book was on the list.

A little nitpick: Given that you are a reader of eBooks and as it is the mass market paperback fiction bestseller list you didn't do anything to "help get him bestseller status". (Neither did I, since I also bought the eBook.)

[Paper Moon]

zarkon wrote:

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For myself I assumed that Flint burned all evidence of his existence there and left, and on rereading and seeing the words "abandoned", "where they might have gone" and "They've left me nothing to follow", I'm puzzled as to how you came to a different conclusion.

Well, first of all, I don't trust Soong as being a 100% reliable narrator, particularly at this highly volatile nexus of his jealousy for Vaslovik and his unrequited love for Juliana. His use of the terms you noted strike me as deliberately not including the possibility that they may have been targeted by the Borg. That seems to me to reflect an unconscious refusal to consider that possibility, which would color his account of what he saw.

That said, Soong does note that some "blackened timbers remained upright," and that is harder (though not impossible) to reconcile with my theory of a Borg attack.

I concede that Mack is more ambiguous regarding Juliana's fate than I initially perceived, and that it is probably more likely that she survived than not.

Still, though, if that is the case, I am still puzzled why Data does not put more emphasis on finding his mother as well as Vaslovik. But I figure that will be addressed in the next two books.

[JWolf]

Defcon wrote:

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A little nitpick: Given that you are a reader of eBooks and as it is the mass market paperback fiction bestseller list you didn't do anything to "help get him bestseller status". (Neither did I, since I also bought the eBook.)

The NYT Bestseller list does include eBooks and combined eBooks and print.

[Defcon]

JWolf wrote:

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The NYT Bestseller list does include eBooks and combined eBooks and print.

Yes, but the specific sub list Dave was on does not include eBooks as it was the MASS MARKET PAPERBACK FICTION list.

LINK

[Christopher]

Paper Moon wrote:

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Still, though, if that is the case, I am still puzzled why Data does not put more emphasis on finding his mother as well as Vaslovik. But I figure that will be addressed in the next two books.

If you were in a situation where you had the opportunity to a) be reunited with a mother that you knew was alive and well and b) bring your dead daughter back to life, I think that, no matter how much you might be looking forward to a), you'd consider b) much more urgent.

[zarkon]

Paper Moon wrote:

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Still, though, if that is the case, I am still puzzled why Data does not put more emphasis on finding his mother as well as Vaslovik. But I figure that will be addressed in the next two books.

That was Soong's quest, not Data's.

[Elias Vaughn]

Data knows where Juliana is - with Vaslovik. Soong saw them together, and Data has Soong's memories. He has no reason to believe that his search for Vaslovik won't also reunite him with his mother.

[Paper Moon]

Elias Vaughn wrote:

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Data knows where Juliana is - with Vaslovik. Soong saw them together, and Data has Soong's memories. He has no reason to believe that his search for Vaslovik won't also reunite him with his mother.

All I'm saying is that, technically, all Data knows is that Soong remembers seeing Juliana and Vaslovik together in 2375. He doesn't know the circumstances in which Vaslovik's mansion burned down, and he doesn't have confirmation that Juliana survived the Borg Invasion.

Just because Juliana was with Vaslovik in 2375 doesn't mean she's still with him nine years later.

Christopher wrote:

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If you were in a situation where you had the opportunity to a) be reunited with a mother that you knew was alive and well and b) bring your dead daughter back to life, I think that, no matter how much you might be looking forward to a), you'd consider b) much more urgent.

Obviously (b) is more urgent to Data, but that urgency doesn't prevent him from briefly acknowledging her continued existence. It'd be a minor matter of semantics. And furthermore, beyond what Soong saw in 2375, do we have any evidence that Juliana is still active?