data department change in chain of command

hayesc0 · November 17 2012, 07:33 AM

he became captain jellico's first officer and changed to command division how can he take such a step back to ops after such a big accomplishment

Trekker4747 · November 17 2012, 12:43 PM

It was a field promotion, not an official one. It's sort of like when you're the assistant-manager/supervisor at your job and then the Big Guy takes a week vacation. Bam! You're now the boss! You tell people what to do and hold down the fort. But that doesn't make you "boss forever" you go back down once he comes back.

MikeS · November 20 2012, 08:35 AM

Like Riker in BOBW?

CoveTom · November 20 2012, 10:55 PM

The Riker one seems more murky to me. Obviously, for purposes of the show, he had to go back to being first officer at the end of the episode. But he was given a promotion and command of the ship by an admiral with the authority to do so, not on a temporary basis but on the assumption Captain Picard was dead and that this would be a permanent command for Riker. Even given the unusual circumstances, it seems odd to me to knock him back down to Commander, even if he goes back to being first officer.

Dream · November 20 2012, 11:01 PM

CoveTom wrote:

Even given the unusual circumstances, it seems odd to me to knock him back down to Commander, even if he goes back to being first officer.

I always thought that allowing Riker to remain first officer on the Enterprise was his reward for saving Earth while in command in BOBW. I'm sure many people thought it was a good idea for him to be there with Picard just in case.

But after 15 years, Starfleet was fed up and the captain's rank offered to him in Nemesis was the absolutely last time they would do it.

Squiggy · November 20 2012, 11:37 PM

Can one pass up a promotion in the modern military?

los2188 · November 21 2012, 07:48 AM

Dream wrote:

CoveTom wrote:

Even given the unusual circumstances, it seems odd to me to knock him back down to Commander, even if he goes back to being first officer.

I always thought that allowing Riker to remain first officer on the Enterprise was his reward for saving Earth while in command in BOBW. I'm sure many people thought it was a good idea for him to be there with Picard just in case.

But after 15 years, Starfleet was fed up and the captain's rank offered to him in Nemesis was the absolutely last time they would do it.

From what I understand, Riker had a choice as to whether to become a captain or to remain first officer to Picard as commander Shelby stated by saying something to the effect of "you'll have your choice of command on any ship" or something like that, but he stated that he wanted to remain with the enterprise. I also always got the vibe that part of the reason why Riker never took the captain's chair is because he wanted the enterprise again as stated in Generations where he thought he'd "get a shot at the this old chair" referencing the enterprise. I do believe that him assuming command of the titan was sort of a last time the captain's chair would be offered to him. In the Nemesis script that never aired, Picard and Riker spoke about how the Enterprise will one day be his and that the titan is a fine and beautiful ship...but of course since it never made it to air, it's not canon.

CoveTom · November 21 2012, 02:28 PM

That all makes sense, but what I was saying is that it doesn't make sense to me that he got promoted to the rank of Captain and then got bumped back down to Commander. I'm not talking about the position of Captain, just the rank.

We've seen from the TOS movies that you can have more than one person of Captain rank serving aboard a starship. By the time of the TOS crew's assignment to the Enterprise-A at the end of TVH, you had Kirk, Spock, and Scotty all holding the rank of Captain even though only Kirk actually was in command of the ship. So why couldn't Riker have retained the rank of Captain but still been first officer?

FreddyE · November 22 2012, 09:54 AM

Squiggy wrote:

Can one pass up a promotion in the modern military?

Yeah...I wonder about that too. Is there anbody here who can answer this?

Timo · November 22 2012, 05:44 PM

Speculation only, but...

In modern militaries, there aren't that many opportunities for promotion at the higher levels, as a promotion would be associated with an assignment known to be in need of an officer, and a modern Navy doesn't have anywhere near as many ships as Starfleet, nor as many sector command "starbases" or comparable positions for flag officers. On the other hand, military men on the lower rungs of the ladder are running out of viable working years as their physical fitness quickly deteriorates. Promotions would be carefully preplanned by the organization to meet its needs, and anybody arguing against them would justly raise the ire of the organization. In most cases, it would be tantamount to disobeying an order; a promotion essentially is a transfer order of sorts.

Starfleet would be facing somewhat different conditions: a huge number of ships, suffering constant losses even in peacetime, would create job openings, whereas the people queuing up for the openings would remain physically fit for longer thanks to future medicine and whatnot. Extensive cross-training would allow redshirts to take promotions to goldshirt positions etc. And the long-lived people might spend decades in a given position, accumulating merit within that position rather than by climbing up the hierarchy. Plus, the pressures from below would be reduced as there apparently would be no pay incentive to earn a promotion: you wouldn't need to get extra brass on your collar in order to feed your family, and your motivation to hunt for a promotion would probably come from you aiming at a specific ideal position. Once you reached that, you wouldn't be bumping into the people right above you in hopes of taking their jobs and pay rates.

Timo Saloniemi

T'Girl · November 22 2012, 09:49 PM

CoveTom wrote:

That all makes sense, but what I was saying is that it doesn't make sense to me that he got promoted to the rank of Captain and then got bumped back down to Commander. I'm not talking about the position of Captain, just the rank.

Even if he was "reduced " back to first officer, there is no reason he couldn't have retained the rank of Captain..

Both the Captain and the Executive Officer of the current USS Enterprise (CVN-65) are Captains by rank. Captain William Hamilton and Captain Gregory Huffman.

gastrof · November 23 2012, 03:42 AM

T'Girl wrote:

Both the Captain and the Executive Officer of the current USS Enterprise (CVN-65) are Captains by rank. Captain William Hamilton and Captain Gregory Huffman.

Okay.

I'll be the one to say it.

How in the world do you know about these guys?

It's not right.

Just because they're on the Enterprise they shouldn't have Trek fans stalking them and following their careers.

T'Girl · November 23 2012, 12:20 PM

I'm a trekkie, I admit to a somewhat unnatural fascination with the American (and separately British) naval ship named Enterprise. When she is decommissioned this spring, and there is no Enterprise in our fleet, I shall be sad.

Timo · November 23 2012, 01:08 PM

It's not as if such information would be difficult to obtain, either. Not on celebrity assignments like that. It's a bit more involving to find out the identity of the XO on a random minesweeper, say, USS Avenger...

...Namely, you have to sign in to Facebook instead of just googling.

Just kidding (although the ship does have a FB page). Simply go to www.public.navy.mil for whatever you want to know.

Timo Saloniemi

MacLeod · November 23 2012, 01:31 PM

T'Girl wrote:

I'm a trekkie, I admit to a somewhat unnatural fascination with the American (and separately British) naval ship named Enterprise. When she is decommissioned this spring, and there is no Enterprise in our fleet, I shall be sad.

There however will be an Enterprise still in service, the HMS Enterprise a multi role survey vessel - hydrographic oceanographic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Enterprise_%28H88%29

November 17 2012, 07:33 AM	#1
hayesc0 Lieutenant Junior Grade	data department change in chain of command he became captain jellico's first officer and changed to command division how can he take such a step back to ops after such a big accomplishment

November 17 2012, 12:43 PM	#2
Trekker4747 To boldly go... Location: Kansas City	Re: data department change in chain of command It was a field promotion, not an official one. It's sort of like when you're the assistant-manager/supervisor at your job and then the Big Guy takes a week vacation. Bam! You're now the boss! You tell people what to do and hold down the fort. But that doesn't make you "boss forever" you go back down once he comes back. __________________ Just because it's futuristic doesn't mean it's practical.

November 20 2012, 08:35 AM	#3
MikeS Fleet Captain Location: Liverpool, UK	Re: data department change in chain of command Like Riker in BOBW? __________________ One day soon, man is going to be able to harness incredible energies, energies that could ultimately hurl us to other worlds in... some sort of spaceship.

November 20 2012, 10:55 PM	#4
CoveTom Rear Admiral Location: CoveTom	Re: data department change in chain of command The Riker one seems more murky to me. Obviously, for purposes of the show, he had to go back to being first officer at the end of the episode. But he was given a promotion and command of the ship by an admiral with the authority to do so, not on a temporary basis but on the assumption Captain Picard was dead and that this would be a permanent command for Riker. Even given the unusual circumstances, it seems odd to me to knock him back down to Commander, even if he goes back to being first officer.

November 20 2012, 11:37 PM	#6
Squiggy Shit Supreme Location: Not on your life, my Hindu friend.	Re: data department change in chain of command Can one pass up a promotion in the modern military? __________________ ENOUGH OF THIS TURGID BASH WANKERY!

STAR TREK

CSI

ABOUT US

November 21 2012, 02:28 PM	#8
CoveTom Rear Admiral Location: CoveTom	Re: data department change in chain of command That all makes sense, but what I was saying is that it doesn't make sense to me that he got promoted to the rank of Captain and then got bumped back down to Commander. I'm not talking about the position of Captain, just the rank. We've seen from the TOS movies that you can have more than one person of Captain rank serving aboard a starship. By the time of the TOS crew's assignment to the Enterprise-A at the end of TVH, you had Kirk, Spock, and Scotty all holding the rank of Captain even though only Kirk actually was in command of the ship. So why couldn't Riker have retained the rank of Captain but still been first officer?

November 22 2012, 05:44 PM	#10
Timo Admiral	Re: data department change in chain of command Speculation only, but... In modern militaries, there aren't that many opportunities for promotion at the higher levels, as a promotion would be associated with an assignment known to be in need of an officer, and a modern Navy doesn't have anywhere near as many ships as Starfleet, nor as many sector command "starbases" or comparable positions for flag officers. On the other hand, military men on the lower rungs of the ladder are running out of viable working years as their physical fitness quickly deteriorates. Promotions would be carefully preplanned by the organization to meet its needs, and anybody arguing against them would justly raise the ire of the organization. In most cases, it would be tantamount to disobeying an order; a promotion essentially is a transfer order of sorts. Starfleet would be facing somewhat different conditions: a huge number of ships, suffering constant losses even in peacetime, would create job openings, whereas the people queuing up for the openings would remain physically fit for longer thanks to future medicine and whatnot. Extensive cross-training would allow redshirts to take promotions to goldshirt positions etc. And the long-lived people might spend decades in a given position, accumulating merit within that position rather than by climbing up the hierarchy. Plus, the pressures from below would be reduced as there apparently would be no pay incentive to earn a promotion: you wouldn't need to get extra brass on your collar in order to feed your family, and your motivation to hunt for a promotion would probably come from you aiming at a specific ideal position. Once you reached that, you wouldn't be bumping into the people right above you in hopes of taking their jobs and pay rates. Timo Saloniemi

November 23 2012, 12:20 PM	#13
T'Girl Vice Admiral	Re: data department change in chain of command I'm a trekkie, I admit to a somewhat unnatural fascination with the American (and separately British) naval ship named Enterprise. When she is decommissioned this spring, and there is no Enterprise in our fleet, I shall be sad.

November 23 2012, 01:08 PM	#14
Timo Admiral	Re: data department change in chain of command It's not as if such information would be difficult to obtain, either. Not on celebrity assignments like that. It's a bit more involving to find out the identity of the XO on a random minesweeper, say, USS Avenger... ...Namely, you have to sign in to Facebook instead of just googling. Just kidding (although the ship does have a FB page). Simply go to www.public.navy.mil for whatever you want to know. Timo Saloniemi