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Old November 21 2012, 11:55 PM   #1
The Overlord
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Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?
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Old November 22 2012, 01:03 AM   #2
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

For better or for worse it because the Seven of Nine show
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Old November 22 2012, 01:13 AM   #3
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Both.

In seasons 4-7 Voyager was pretty much the Janeway-Seven-Doctor show, whereas in the first two seasons all the characters got good screen time. That dragged down the show terribly. But, in season 3 the show had gotten terribly stale and they were reaching for story. They had dinosaurs evolve into a super-race, for chrissake. Seven revitalized the show and made it interesting again.
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Old November 22 2012, 02:14 AM   #4
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

The entire show is fabulous but once 7 of 9 arrived it became a gajillion times better.

Keeping Kes or dumping Kes didn't make much difference IMO. You could stick Kes in the background with the EMH and have her say sweet things to 7 and it would be neither here nor there.
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Old November 22 2012, 03:51 AM   #5
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

teacake wrote: View Post
The entire show is fabulous but once 7 of 9 arrived it became a gajillion times better.

Keeping Kes or dumping Kes didn't make much difference IMO. You could stick Kes in the background with the EMH and have her say sweet things to 7 and it would be neither here nor there.
Agreed.
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Old November 22 2012, 07:15 AM   #6
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Kes seemed to have the most story potential, but the writers just couldn't figure out what to do with it.

Seven was a dynamic character that went through an interesting character arc. It would've been a lot easier to take her seriously if they didn't have her parading around in a outfit that set women's rights back 200 years.

I was disappointed to see Kes go, but for better or worse it's what happened. The Seven character did give the show a much needed reboot of sorts.
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Old November 22 2012, 07:54 AM   #7
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Kes seemed to have the most story potential, but the writers just couldn't figure out what to do with it.

Seven was a dynamic character that went through an interesting character arc. It would've been a lot easier to take her seriously if they didn't have her parading around in a outfit that set women's rights back 200 years.

I was disappointed to see Kes go, but for better or worse it's what happened. The Seven character did give the show a much needed reboot of sorts.
Kes had a lot of potential that the writers never realized and 7 of 9 was a character who had an arc, so it would have been nice to keep both those things and get rid of someone unimportant, like Neelix or Harry Kim. Hell they would have gotten rid of Harry Kim, if Garret Wang didn't make into the list of the 50 most beautiful people.

I think the show needed a character with an arc, so having Seven on made sense, but it would have been nice to keep Kes as well.
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Old November 22 2012, 08:11 AM   #8
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

OR they could have given Harry a fabulous arc.

Harry could have really been an alien like they wanted us to believe in Favorite Son, only instead of being bullshit it could have been real and Harry has to make his big decision and he stays with the ship only he is full of extra angst because of leaving his biological people behind. So much angst Janeway rips him a new clarinet hole.

Harry could be a sleeper agent for Section 31 and it takes us three seasons to find out because stuff keeps happening but even Harry doesn't know he's a sleeper agent until some alien probe activates him.

And of course there's my favorite suggestion which is the time Harry gestated 7 and Janeway's baby for them so they didn't miss a day of work.

The Harry arcs write themselves!
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Old November 22 2012, 08:42 AM   #9
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
But, in season 3 the show had gotten terribly stale and they were reaching for story. They had dinosaurs evolve into a super-race, for chrissake.
That was one of the best epiosodes of Voyager IMO. It showed continuity (Basics) and explored a real sci-fi "what-if". If only there had been more of this rather than soapy "mummy" Katherine and "baby" Seven.
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Old November 22 2012, 01:31 PM   #10
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Well the most exciting episodes,are after season 4 ( Scorpion,Year of Hell,Dark Frontier,Equinox etc...),Seven of Nine was simply brilliant,the character was very well written and had amazing development...people just want to criticize and say she was all eye candy etc...but did anyone take a moment and just and enjoy her long quest to be an actual human her inner dilemma which leads her to saying im not human and im not Borg ...major identity crisis episodes like "Imperfection",Raven,Gift,Someone to watch over me,infinite regress...omg the best character ever in star trek History XD
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Old November 22 2012, 06:54 PM   #11
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

R. Star wrote: View Post

It would've been a lot easier to take her seriously if they didn't have her parading around in a outfit that set women's rights back 200 years.
I disagree.
Seven was an example to not judge a book by it's cover.
Seven was intimidating to men. Seven showed a beautiful woman with great self esteem, successful in her career and didn't need a man to protect her or define her. She showed that you can be a head strong woman without being labeled a Lesbian, as many did when it came to Kira or flaky like Dax. Seven showed us, regardless of how you look it's what inside that counts. If anything, Seven is pro-women's rights.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
But, in season 3 the show had gotten terribly stale and they were reaching for story. They had dinosaurs evolve into a super-race, for chrissake.
That was one of Voyager's best eps. IMO.
It's paying homage to "Planet of the Apes" and the debate within it of Evolution vs. Creation. The concept of Dino's evolving into humanoid like species is no more reacting than believing Apes can evolve into a humanoid like species and be a more advanced and dominating species on Earth. The Voth Queen = Dr. Zaius, in the fact that she's covering up the truth of evoution in what she believes is protecting Voth society. Gagan = Zera, the scientist that has discovered scientific truth with Chakotay = Charlton Heston's Astronaut George Taylor.
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Last edited by exodus; November 22 2012 at 07:21 PM.
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Old November 22 2012, 07:15 PM   #12
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

I would say it went both ways. Seven was a fantastic character but the show focused too much on her once she was brought on. I would rather have seen equal character development, and not just specific characters getting all the attention. Granted, it depends on the potential of the stories with the characters, but the writers could have done more to develop the other characters like Harry and Chakotay.

What I like about the earlier seasons is that the amount of character stories are fairly spread out, and I wish that they had kept a similar dynamic in the later seasons.
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Old November 22 2012, 07:32 PM   #13
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I would say it went both ways. Seven was a fantastic character but the show focused too much on her once she was brought on. I would rather have seen equal character development, and not just specific characters getting all the attention. Granted, it depends on the potential of the stories with the characters, but the writers could have done more to develop the other characters like Harry and Chakotay.

What I like about the earlier seasons is that the amount of character stories are fairly spread out, and I wish that they had kept a similar dynamic in the later seasons.
While I agree with you totally in retrospect, I think while the show was in production the decline in viewership gave those in charge the impression that we didn't care about the other characters or their development. If the audience enjoyed the development of the other characters, then why were we turning away? When Seven joined the cast, many tuned back in for a while. So it seemed logical to them to continue to focus on the character that was putting butts back into the seats.
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Old November 22 2012, 08:25 PM   #14
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Both.

In seasons 4-7 Voyager was pretty much the Janeway-Seven-Doctor show, whereas in the first two seasons all the characters got good screen time. That dragged down the show terribly. But, in season 3 the show had gotten terribly stale and they were reaching for story. They had dinosaurs evolve into a super-race, for chrissake. Seven revitalized the show and made it interesting again.
The writers could easily have done that without adding Seven.
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Old November 22 2012, 08:32 PM   #15
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Worse.

Star Trek Voyager ended and became Star Trek Seven Of Nine show.

As for Kes, she deserved better than to be dumped the way she was. She was a great character.
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