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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old November 22 2012, 01:32 AM   #16
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
Plus with the 2009 movie taking place around 2257 (for the main part, meaning Kirk apparently gets command years before his Prime version)
Is there any indication at all, in any novel, as to what year Kirk Prime received his first command? There's nothing in the show about it, I'm fairly sure of that. It could be that prime-Kirk got his first ship at about the same time that nuKirk did!
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Old November 22 2012, 01:33 AM   #17
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

Well, suffice it to say, when you compare that to the Prime Universe, the Enterprise was already in space by 2253 (as per Spock's line in The Menagerie about the events of The Cage occurring "13 years" before) with Captain Pike in command. So, really the only thing that connects the two universes together is possible Star Trek Enterprise, because that occurred prior to Nero's entry into the Abramsverse. But, even then it could be argued that Enterprise is more in line with the 2009 universe than the Prime universe.

In the novels it is generally considered that Kirk achieved command of the Enterprise around late-2264/early-2265. I just recently read Strangers from The Sky, and the second part occurred before Where No Man Has Gone Before but just after Kirk received command of the Enterprise. Plus Enterprise: The First Adventure takes place, if I recall correctly, immediately following Kirk's assumption. (And, funnily enough, it has Chekov at the nav station over a year before he was seen at it on the show---this might've been an inspiration for the Abrams and company including Chekov in the 2009 movie the way they did, since there was nothing on screen in the original series or movies that said that Chekov boarded the ship after Operation: Annihilate.)

But there's also the Voyager episode Q2 where Kirk's first 5-year mission is said to end in 2270.
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Old November 22 2012, 01:36 AM   #18
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
But, even then it could be argued that Enterprise is more in line with the 2009 universe than the Prime universe.
Logically, no. ENT is common to both universes, by definition, since Nero's incursion occurred decades after it took place.

In the novels it is generally considered that Kirk achieved command of the Enterprise around late-2264/early-2265.
But the Enterprise was not his FIRST command, was it? I thought he had command of a smaller destroyer-type ship before that. Possibly while at a lower rank, like Commander.
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Old November 22 2012, 02:06 AM   #19
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Is there any indication at all, in any novel, as to what year Kirk Prime received his first command? There's nothing in the show about it, I'm fairly sure of that. It could be that prime-Kirk got his first ship at about the same time that nuKirk did!
Not likely. We know from "Obsession" that eleven years before the episode, which would be 2257, Kirk was a lieutenant "on his first deep-space assignment." Unless something similarly extraordinary happened the following year to catapult him into his first command of some ship or other, it seems likely that it took him rather longer to get to that point.



tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
(And, funnily enough, it has Chekov at the nav station over a year before he was seen at it on the show---this might've been an inspiration for the Abrams and company including Chekov in the 2009 movie the way they did, since there was nothing on screen in the original series or movies that said that Chekov boarded the ship after Operation: Annihilate.)
The inspiration for including Chekov in both Enterprise: The First Adventure and the 2009 movie was undoubtedly the same. I figure they both independently included McCoy, Chekov, and Uhura before the events of the second pilot (and put Sulu at the helm instead of astrophysics) because it was the familiar core seven characters that the audience would want to see. Most readers or viewers would care more about that familiarity than about the niceties of crew continuity.
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Old November 22 2012, 02:15 AM   #20
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:
Logically, no. ENT is common to both universes, by definition, since Nero's incursion occurred decades after it took place.
Quite frankly, let canon be disgraced on this one, but Enterprise really had nothing to do with TOS. Even before the 2009 movie came out, when I was watching it on DVD I was finding it hard to believe that Starfleet ships of the 2150's could look so much like their counterparts of the 2360's, instead of the 2260's. So, in terms of design, and don't try to tell me that it's because TOS was based on 1960's assumptions, compared to TNG's 1980's/90's assumptions, I also felt like the producers of Enterprise were trying to shove TOS out the airlock, and say that between Enterprise and TNG, we don't know what happned.

So design wise, the 2009 movie looks like it belongs in the same universe as Enterprise. Plus, storywise, it doesn't jar you with annoying continuity questions like 'If humans had already met the Ferengi, then why did they not recognize them from the history tapes in "The Last Outpost", even though they had no name attached to them?'

Enterprise I found was done better in the books, and the books, especially the books that were written while the series was on air, tended to be more consistent with what had previously been mentioned.

Even Michael Jan Friedman's Starfleet Year One was a better prequel story for the Prime universe than the entire run of Enterprise.

But the Enterprise was not his FIRST command, was it? I thought he had command of a smaller destroyer-type ship before that. Possibly while at a lower rank, like Commander.

I'm just looking on Memory Beta---and its saying that in 2259 Lieutenant Commander Kirk was the first officer of the USS Alexander, and was forced to become Acting Captain upon the death of the Alexander's captain in a battle with the Klingon's. (Corona; Crossroad). Also in 2259 he was a line officer in command of 100 men on the planet Shad. (Covenant of the Crown).

2260 Kirk is promoted to Commander.

2261 saw Kirk in command of the USS Aloia. (Inception)

Also in 2261 Kirk was in command of the USS Oxford (The Better Man)

2262 Kirk was on shore leave for 3 months.

2363 Kirk was a Commander in command of the USS Lydia Sutherland, which was later destroyed. (Enterprise: The First Adventure) It was at this time in 2363 that Kirk was offered command of the Enterprise.

Aside from ETFA and COTC, I haven't read any of the other novels. But I also remember that in one of Shatner's books (I know it was one of the Totality books), it was mentioned that it was unusual for Kirk to be given command of the Enterprise at his young age.
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Old November 22 2012, 04:37 AM   #21
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote:
Logically, no. ENT is common to both universes, by definition, since Nero's incursion occurred decades after it took place.
Quite frankly, let canon be disgraced on this one
Stop right there. You can't do that. Canon is canon, and it is not to be questioned. It's not up to personal preference.
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Old November 22 2012, 05:07 AM   #22
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

It's not that canon is "not to be questioned," it's just that the word means the exact opposite of personal preference. Canon is the current official portrayal of the continuity, the version presented by the current creator(s) of the core work in the franchise. It may be subject to change as the creators refine their thinking over time or as new creators take over from old ones, but what comes from the creators is canon. That's not a value judgment, merely a description. The individual can certainly have a personal preference to interpret the continuity differently, but that has no bearing on what constitutes canon, any more than a person choosing to move to Latvia has a bearing on what constitutes the United States of America. The canon is not a dogma that fans are required to obey or a perfectly consistent whole or a measure of quality or correctness or any of the other ludicrous superstitions that fans imbue the word with. It's just the stuff the creators come up with as distinct from the stuff other people come up with.
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Old November 22 2012, 11:07 AM   #23
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote:
Logically, no. ENT is common to both universes, by definition, since Nero's incursion occurred decades after it took place.
Quite frankly, let canon be disgraced on this one, but Enterprise really had nothing to do with TOS. Even before the 2009 movie came out, when I was watching it on DVD I was finding it hard to believe that Starfleet ships of the 2150's could look so much like their counterparts of the 2360's, instead of the 2260's. So, in terms of design, and don't try to tell me that it's because TOS was based on 1960's assumptions, compared to TNG's 1980's/90's assumptions, I also felt like the producers of Enterprise were trying to shove TOS out the airlock, and say that between Enterprise and TNG, we don't know what happned.
But TOS *was* made in the 1960's, and set and ship design can be changed as easily as an actor is recast. They have nothing to do with the story. Kirk is William Shatner and Chris Pine. The Enterprise is the Enterprise whether it looks as it did in 1966 or 2009. A Romulan Bird of Prey is the same whether it looks as it did in "Minefield" or "Balance of Terror"
Read my longer post HERE on the subject of visual continuity.
So design wise, the 2009 movie looks like it belongs in the same universe as Enterprise. Plus, storywise, it doesn't jar you with annoying continuity questions like 'If humans had already met the Ferengi, then why did they not recognize them from the history tapes in "The Last Outpost", even though they had no name attached to them?'
Unrecorded (for whatever vague reason) first contacts have happened in Trek before - Robert April and George Kirk learned the Romulans' secret in Diane Carey's Final Frontier, the Borg's initial encounter was rewritten in Voyager and Enterprise (and at least one TOS comic)
And it's not like pre-Enterprise continuity was flawless. Trek is entertainment first and foremost. TNG wasn't too bothered to pretend the earlier comment about Romulans having not been seen or heard from in 50 years ("The Neutral Zone") never happened when they wrote about a huge Romulan incident 22 years ago ("Yesterday's Enterprise") and Voyager merrily slowed warp speeds down to suit it's core plotline, making TOS' galaxy-crossing journies (and thus the events of several episodes and one movie) impossible.
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Old November 22 2012, 02:50 PM   #24
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

I do wonder what the TOS Enterprise would have looked like had it been the ship destroyed in the opening scene of ST XI (as was the plan, before Abrams was told that it was strictly forbidden to destroy an Enterprise) instead of the Kelvin.
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Old November 22 2012, 03:12 PM   #25
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I do wonder what the TOS Enterprise would have looked like had it been the ship destroyed in the opening scene of ST XI (as was the plan, before Abrams was told that it was strictly forbidden to destroy an Enterprise) instead of the Kelvin.
I think it'd look like THIS.
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Old November 22 2012, 03:24 PM   #26
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
But TOS *was* made in the 1960's, and set and ship design can be changed as easily as an actor is recast.
Right. The TOS ship didn't look the way it did because it was exactly what the creators wanted, but because it was the best approximation of future technology that they could manage with the limited time, budget, and resources at their disposal. That's why they changed the look so radically for Phase II/TMP -- because by then they had the budget and tech to make it more sophisticated. Same with the makeup. When TMP came out and showed us ridged Klingons, Roddenberry explicitly told fans to accept that Klingons had always looked like that, but TOS simply hadn't been able to show it. His own view was that what we saw was just a modern attempt to approximate a conjectural future, and that fans shouldn't take its every detail literally.


Unrecorded (for whatever vague reason) first contacts have happened in Trek before - Robert April and George Kirk learned the Romulans' secret in Diane Carey's Final Frontier, the Borg's initial encounter was rewritten in Voyager and Enterprise (and at least one TOS comic)
Not to mention in real life. Europeans first settled North America in 1000 CE, the Norse colony of Vinland. The Vinlanders and indigenous peoples interacted, traded, and fought for years before the colony was abandoned. And then it was completely forgotten about, so that when Columbus stumbled upon North America nearly 500 years later, it was believed for centuries to be the "first contact" between Europe and the Americas.


Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I do wonder what the TOS Enterprise would have looked like had it been the ship destroyed in the opening scene of ST XI (as was the plan, before Abrams was told that it was strictly forbidden to destroy an Enterprise) instead of the Kelvin.
Probably much like the Kelvin did, interior-wise -- suggestive of the overall look and flavor of TOS design, but considerably more modern and detailed. After all, the film was targeted mainly at creating a new audience for Star Trek, bringing in moviegoers who weren't already devoted fans. And winning over modern moviegoers would require giving the film a modern look. Not to mention that the feature film screen, just by virtue of its size and resolution, demands more detailed set design than the small, mediocre-definition TV screens that TOS was made for. Basically, TV design back then was more impressionistic, more about the broad strokes than the details. So a more detailed, technically advanced design that captures the same overall aesthetic is a valid way to recreate it.
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Old November 23 2012, 12:58 AM   #27
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

Terran wrote: View Post
It would be good if these novels continued to after the point Romulus was destroyed. Would make a very interesting read.
I don't see any reason to think they won't. At this point it's only 2 or 3 years away depending on where the Cold Equations trilogy ends, and, ATM at least, they aren't showing any signs of slowing down.
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Old November 23 2012, 04:26 PM   #28
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I do wonder what the TOS Enterprise would have looked like had it been the ship destroyed in the opening scene of ST XI (as was the plan, before Abrams was told that it was strictly forbidden to destroy an Enterprise) instead of the Kelvin.
I'd never heard that before. I wonder if they had done this, would they have spared Vulcan? I would have thought that offing both the ENT and Vulcan in one movie might have been a bit too much for our heads.

Do you have a link to this? Not that I don't believe you, I'd just be interested in reading more about this plan.
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Old November 23 2012, 04:47 PM   #29
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Re: Are there novels which bridge TOS and Trek 2009?

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Do you have a link to this? Not that I don't believe you, I'd just be interested in reading more about this plan.
Reported here at IMDb, but the original interview should still be online:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0796366/trivia
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