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Fan Productions Creating our own Trek canon!

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Old November 21 2012, 10:43 PM   #106
USS Intrepid
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

Well put. I said something similar about 3 pages back, albeit far less eloquently.
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Old November 22 2012, 01:05 AM   #107
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

doubleohfive wrote: View Post

This is basically what I was getting at before Linnear's meltdown. An all inclusive cooperative that everyone could contribute to and also benefit from. Its easy to see the benefits and why it would be a good thing to include everyone; I'm just not clear on why we wouldn't want to include everyone.
You still can't resist taking shots can you? You can't let it lie? You just have to claim "meltdown" on my part rather than "Sick of your arrogant bullshit". Something I continue to be. How insecure are you that you have to keep attacking me?

Whorfin posts something that should make you think and instead you take a cheap shot again.

And our little group hasn't turned anyone away and is doing fine and already productions are helping each other. What this thread shoudl be focused on.

Alec
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Old November 22 2012, 01:12 AM   #108
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

Linnear wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post

This is basically what I was getting at before Linnear's meltdown. An all inclusive cooperative that everyone could contribute to and also benefit from. Its easy to see the benefits and why it would be a good thing to include everyone; I'm just not clear on why we wouldn't want to include everyone.
You still can't resist taking shots can you? You can't let it lie? You just have to claim "meltdown" on my part rather than "Sick of your arrogant bullshit". Something I continue to be. How insecure are you that you have to keep attacking me?

Whorfin posts something that should make you think and instead you take a cheap shot again.
What cheap shot? You're quoting a post from over a month ago that has nothing to do with the discussion now. Never mind that it's also a post which you ignored in favor of continuing to overreact here , which, by the way, you're doing again.

And our little group hasn't turned anyone away and is doing fine and already productions are helping each other. What this thread shoudl be focused on.

Alec
Congratulations. I'm going to try to embrace the spirit in which Whorfin posted and has advocated and continue to wish you well.
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Old November 22 2012, 01:16 AM   #109
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

Guys, I didn't want to wade into this, but I've talked to both of you in the past, and I think you're both good people. I honestly think you've just gotten off on the wrong foot here.

Alec, doubleohfive is a good guy, whose been very supportive of fanfilms, and who I've spoken with on more than one occasion. I think this is just a misunderstanding. And doubleohfive, Alec's absolutely genuine, and couldn't be more helpful behind the scenes. If the two of you met in the pub I suspect you'd find you have far more in common than this thread would suggest.
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Old November 22 2012, 01:19 AM   #110
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
Guys, I didn't want to wade into this, but I've talked to both of you in the past, and I think you're both good people. I honestly think you've just gotten off on the wrong foot here.

Alec, doubleohfive is a good guy, whose been very supportive of fanfilms, and who I've spoken with on more than one occasion.
Thanks, Nick. Much appreciated.

I think this is just a misunderstanding. And doubleohfive, Alec's absolutely genuine, and couldn't be more helpful behind the scenes. If the two of you met in the pub I suspect you'd find you have far more in common than this thread would suggest.
I completely agree - this is very obviously a misunderstanding. And I will admit - sometimes my posts do not convey accurately the intention of my meaning. Perhaps a pint is exactly the missing ingredient here with all these communication snafus.
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Old November 22 2012, 01:28 AM   #111
USS Intrepid
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

I'd be embarrassed to admit how many times I've screwed up royally by a misplaced word. Sometimes a pint is exactly what's missing.
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Old November 22 2012, 01:34 AM   #112
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

Pardon my saying this, but 90% of writing is EDITING. That post (after the quote) is 6,004 words (I checked), which is almost 1/8th the length of Slaughterhouse 5, and 22 times the length of the Gettysburg address. It's 10 solid pages of 12 point single spaced text. Sheesh. Sum up!
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Old November 22 2012, 01:37 AM   #113
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

"Great scripts are not written, they are re-written!"
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Old November 22 2012, 03:06 AM   #114
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

[QUOTE=Linnear;7288375]
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
You still can't resist taking shots can you? You can't let it lie? You just have to claim "meltdown" on my part rather than "Sick of your arrogant bullshit". Something I continue to be. How insecure are you that you have to keep attacking me?
I think what he was trying to express was the whole conversation went weird, mucho pronto, and he had been laying all the blame on you and he was putting some back on himself. At worse he wasn't completely convinced, and found a way to point that out. This conflict-avoidance stuff takes some practice and doesn't work straight out of the box. The training wheels are on, try to avoid running into each other guys!

Part of what may be going on is that making fan films is often very hard, especially if you want the films to be good. It costs a lot of money, which most of us don't have in ready supply, and lots of cooperation, sometimes with people you just met. To get people's attention, you have to pull off Hollywood level efforts with no money and often little training (I'm not saying everyone, but probably everyone has some non-professionals on the team).

What about me? I have no film training in any capacity, and like a lot of people in the pre-production stage I just try to learn it all myself. I've spent several thousand dollars and, in part due to real-life issues, am not really any closer to accomplishing anything, and have had to put things on hold repeatedly.

The only thing trend that is increasing is my determination that by hook or by crook it will somehow ”get done” (If I die in the attempt, somebody better give me some sort of UFP award or medal posthumously and don’t forget my admiral’s pips, come on!). Star Trek made me a better human being (I think) and if I have any say it’s going to keep doing the same in one form or another. If you look outside your window one might form the conclusion that nothing else seems to be working so it’s worth a shot, no matter that it’s a crazy idea. It was a crazy idea that anybody would even remember the show this far down the road or that we would all be talking into communicators.

What am I talking about now? Well, I think more than a few of us are really frazzled. Working out this association thing has probably been an additional stress before we outsiders ever heard of it. More than a few of us probably have health and financial problems, not to mention working regular jobs on top of whatever else Trek we try to do. And that can make us irritable. I think something like that may be part of the problem for a lot of people. We're too tired to listen well. Personally, I'm not doing so great on speaking.

Also, part of the subtle art of e-communication is that people tend to read things into neutral comments that aren't there. Emoticons can help, but often they lead the conversation equally astray. It happens to me when I send things from time to time and it’s like: "what the heck, that's not what I said!" I'm not saying all the comments were like that, but initially I think some of the questions got interpreted as being a bit harsher than they were intended to be. So now everybody's on edge, and annoyed, and a lot of stuff has been said, and it can just go on indefinitely. And, yes, I would like everybody to stop it, but it’s not likely to happen unless people start ignoring that kind of stuff. Because someone can logon in 8 hours (or whatever) and rile the whole thing up again going over the old posts.

One of the things I have examined in my life is what various philosophical ideas were when they were first "invented" or at least recorded. Karma is one of these concepts. Now if you ask most people what Karma is, assuming they have any idea, they'll start talking about good deeds and bad that effect your fate in a later incarnation and after life. But, a long time ago, when I dug into some possibly more ancient texts, that didn't seem to be what was being talked about. Instead, karma was about the fact that our actions have consequences and these reverberate not just in our own life but after we die in the physical world.

The consequence of this idea is that by an act of choice, choosing not to cause harm, we can stop this "wheel" of karma where the consequences of bad deeds pass on from generation to generation and stranger to stranger like the flapping of those "butterfly wings" they like to talk about in movies. A whole lot of bad deeds can change the world, now we can see them every day on TV. But it’s not enough just to not cause harm yourself, you have to absorb the harm that others do to you. Stop it with your body and your mind, absorb it, destroy it.

This was my straight-forward literal interpretation of what some people think are "more original texts" than others, and it’s not my intention to derail this into a debate as to whether that's the right perspective. But is it true? Well, I'm quite sure that hate doesn't beget love, and pain shouldn't bring happiness, that terror doesn't bring peace. A couple of thousand years or so ago somebody else came up with the idea in an effort to replace the more popular "an eye for an eye", and others have in the 20th Century, in India and America, etc. I think somehow it slipped into Star Trek. Don't ask me how. In the form of that phrase "we're x, but we're not going to be x today." 'The (fill in the blank) have attacked us, but we've got our wits about us finally and we're going to play the higher card.' That Surak guy was peddling the same stuff. I'm probably repeating myself and being a bore. You guys know this already.

I don't insist everyone at every time has to absorb every hurt, just that it’s best to exercise restraint when possible. In this case, I think some people may to have to take one, or a dozen, 'for the team'. Otherwise the point will clearly be made that we're all angling to end up a bunch of cranky old buzzards.

I'm glad that other people are joining The Association (tm!). But there are a lot of talented Trek people here, and the lions tend to hunt gazelles at the watering holes (don't they? It’s been a while since Wild Kingdom) so to speak. So this is one of those watering holes and the Association would have good pickings here, if they can get their foot in the door.

So, I think people's questions had a lot to do with the mechanics of how all this is going to work, and I'm not sure that's really been fully addressed (because of the fireworks). And I'm not sure how much has been worked out in terms of planning that on the Associations end. I'm kind of assuming that part of the reason it was brought up was to help nail down the details. The usefulness of the Audio people being one example of something that might not have been discussed prior. Frankly I would suggest that the fan-fiction people could be a useful part of the mix because story should be at the start of every effort.

Since the verbal jousting started so early I assume that whole part of things didn't seem to happen very effectively. And part of it, I assume, will be that people ask questions, and these get recorded and sent up the chain of command. And it’s a possibility that demand might out-strip supply, or that people will spin-off parallel efforts that are customized the way they like it.

I think that it would be a big help if everyone did their best to forget about the brawls, construct innocuous questions and give diplomatic replies. If you get angry, start running around the block until you either are too tired to be or you drop dead. Well, maybe not that much. And if you can, try to have some fun.

Regards,

Whorfin
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Old November 22 2012, 04:16 AM   #115
Linnear
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

Whorfin:

Thanks for your lengthy posts. Obviously your intention is good and I greatly appreciate that. But damn! You do need an editor for your posts! ;-) I have to agree with Maurice. :-)

How is that for good use of emoticons?

And Nick's words are wise as always. Doubleoh (Would be nice to know your real name) I guess I accidentally replied to an older post. My apologies.

Anyone who actually wants to be involved and help is always welcome. If only all this energy on this thread was put into helping one another.

Alec
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Old November 22 2012, 06:25 AM   #116
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

Maurice wrote: View Post
Pardon my saying this, but 90% of writing is EDITING. That post (after the quote) is 6,004 words (I checked), which is almost 1/8th the length of Slaughterhouse 5, and 22 times the length of the Gettysburg address. It's 10 solid pages of 12 point single spaced text. Sheesh. Sum up!
Cool, but how much is the second one? Its a trifle produced in an hour or so, hammered out rather than hand-crafted. The Gettysburg Address is really short. The guy who spoke before Lincoln talked for a couple of hours. I think and Lincoln's speech was over before they hardly knew he started.

Actually it is edited and redacted, repeatedly (the proper term is endlessly). It took, I think about 7.5 hours to write. How much does it take you guys to read it, and do you get nosebleeds while doing so? Considering that I was jetlagged and have gotten about 7 hours sleep in the last 3 days I think its all turned out rather well.

Would this be the time to mention I've dabbled in script doctoring? Actually I usually slash text and suggest camera work and stage direction to convey the meaning. Writers hate that. "Once Upon a Time in the West" at 2h46m and 8 pages of script is a marvel. But that's a visual medium and I'm stuck with text and emoticons. Of course, there's always graphics (shameless plug):

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=83997

Linnear wrote: View Post
Whorfin:

And Nick's words are wise as always. Doubleoh (Would be nice to know your real name) I guess I accidentally replied to an older post. My apologies.

Anyone who actually wants to be involved and help is always welcome. If only all this energy on this thread was put into helping one another.

Alec
Well, in a way I'm trying to help but I suspect I'm not quite getting through. In general, theories of communication blame the transmitter for failed communication rather than the receiver. So the blame is on me. Of course, there might be more to pass around for some of the earlier stuff. But that's water under the bridge, right?!

I'm all for this idea of detente thorough alcohol. But its got to be pints rather than a pint; make that liters rather than pints, we want peace in our time, damn it. But don't stand too near the dart board if I'm throwing, and no that's not because of the alcohol.

As for anonymity, it has its places. After working about 40 hours a week for almost two years supporting a 3D modeling team on a Trek project an ex-member pursued a campaign of libeling me to all the other people/groups we worked with and mutually knew, accusing me of ridiculous things. Ultimately, that was the end of that project for me and all the friendships. Its one of the things I regret, as only one person was at fault, but after weeks of being prodded I finally over-reacted.

So, many of us probably have good reasons for keeping our personal information secret from people we don't know well. Its very disappointing to have people hate your guts because of what you post (no, I don't mean the length!) but it happens all the time. You don't want them calling you or turning up at your house.

I know, I should have summed it up: Anon. good, revealed ID bad!
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Old November 22 2012, 03:12 PM   #117
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

Whorfin:

First, thanks again for caring enough to take the time to write. It was nice to see a "short" post though from you!

I find a basic tenant of the Internet is that anonymity allows people to treat others in a way they would never do face to face. I run the Star Trek Prop, Costume & Auction forum, the largest forum for collectors of screen used Star Trek props & costumes. We all know each other and we get together every year at the Las Vegas Creation Con. We have an incredibly civil forum where we never have a flame war (partly because we don't allow people to even think of being jerks, it is dealt with before there is a problem). But we also all get together when we can. We just had a big party in NJ at a collector's house (Who I bought the original Shuttlecraft Galileo full size set with). It is great to see people you know online and you develop true friendships.

So I agree, sharing a few pints is absolutely useful, but if you hide behind the Internet, you will never get to share those pints and you will be insulated from the repercussions of your words online, meaning having to face someone in real life who you were rude to online. Which is exactly what some people want, no consequences for their actions. The whole "calling you or turning up at your house" is just so much crap. This isn't the end of "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back". Get real people. That is an excuse to allow you to be rude.

I am probably the most outspoken person in two different aspects of Star Trek, props and fan films. And I am sure there are people who don't like me in both because I am very opinionated. However, I have never had a rude phone call or a person show up at my door. Seriously. That is just ridiculous. However, I have met people in real life who I had a disagreement with online and we have laughed about things and become friends. I had a huge argument with a collector about authentication and actually had to ban him from my forum. Well, we met and became great friends and now, two years later, he is an admin! We actually worked together to authenticate a TOS Captain Kirk tunic.

Back to the "share a few pints" theory. Actual social interaction provides common ground to develop a relationship. It would be fun to have a L.A. based Trek BBS night at a pub. But I would hate to be the only one who showed up! :-)

Alec

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Old November 22 2012, 04:45 PM   #118
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

Start small. Invite one person for a pint or two and see where it goes.
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Old November 23 2012, 11:53 AM   #119
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

Wow...did I stumble late upon the thread that got caught up off the ground in a twister...

I think the points are clear if you are standing on the ground. The intention is so that people involved in producing Trek can connect and share. That should include film, animation, audio...all of it. (I know for a fact P2 has benefited from many people working in various media. Even fanfiction writer's and cosplay folks!)

If the people/productions have nothing positive to share, but only negative, why include them? In fact, warnings might be helpful to share in these cases. There is one person out there who never paid me for my work, and yet continued to use it after two C&Ds were issued. There's a production studio that stopped payment on the check for rental equipment. This isn't gossip and it's not exclusion: it would have been helpful for P2 to know about the stop payment BEFORE trying to rent equipment and getting blasted with "You fanfilm people are....."

So it's absolutely valid to open the group to PEOPLE that want/need to share such things. I don't think ANY "group" can be classified by one person in that group. Heck, the people are changing all the time!
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Old November 24 2012, 06:09 PM   #120
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Re: Star Trek Film Makers Association

Well, I read the first couple of pages of this thread and really liked the idea of an Association. I do a lot of marketing work for local businesses, especially using Facebook. I'd be happy to design posters/ads for any production's fan pages, etc. If any are interested in my help, feel free to check out some of my albums on my FB page. Cheers to all and best of luck with this endeavor.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/RoTV/...=photos_albums

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