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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old November 17 2012, 12:59 AM   #31
Nerys Myk
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

Ahso
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Old November 17 2012, 05:55 AM   #32
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

One could also argue that the events depicted in "Enterprise" and all its attendant timeline changes led to the timeline shown in Trek '09.

(Ducks to avoid thrown objects.)

Seriously, the Kelvin, predating Kirks Enterprise by a good twenty years, had biometric monitoring of away teams, Refit-style deflector technology and other seemingly anachronistic stuff that we never saw in TOS.

Clearly the result of intensive R+D following in the wake of the Xindi attack.
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Old November 17 2012, 06:03 AM   #33
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

E-DUB wrote: View Post
One could also argue that the events depicted in "Enterprise" and all its attendant timeline changes led to the timeline shown in Trek '09.

(Ducks to avoid thrown objects.)

Seriously, the Kelvin, predating Kirks Enterprise by a good twenty years, had biometric monitoring of away teams, Refit-style deflector technology and other seemingly anachronistic stuff that we never saw in TOS.

Clearly the result of intensive R+D following in the wake of the Xindi attack.
Clearly the result of '09 being made over forty years after TOS.
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Old November 17 2012, 06:58 AM   #34
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Its a series of TV shows/films. How can a ship created for a an iteration of the show created in 2001 appear in earlier iterations? The NX-01 omissions in older versions of Star Trek has nothing to do with the E's time trip.
You appear to be getting "in-universe," and "out-universe" mixed up and combined. From a production point of view, obviously the NX-01 wasn't design when we first saw the legacy display. However, in-universe the NX-01 didn't appear among the legacy ships Decker and the Ilia-unit looked at in TMP, nor was the NX-01 present in the observation lounge wall in TNG series.

In-universe, something changed to place it there. If the NX-01, a ship with a prominent history (first this and that), wasn't present, it's not being initially named Enterprise could account for it's absence.

In the original history, Deanna never told Cochrane the Enterprise's name, because she wasn't there the first time through.

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Old November 17 2012, 11:06 AM   #35
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

^The Ringship Enterprise didn't appear in TNG, but a colour version of the TMP art work it did appear a few times in Enterprise, in the 602 club and at Starfleet HQ.
Which universe is the alternate one again?
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(XCV_330)

E-DUB wrote: View Post
One could also argue that the events depicted in "Enterprise" and all its attendant timeline changes led to the timeline shown in Trek '09.

(Ducks to avoid thrown objects.)

Seriously, the Kelvin, predating Kirks Enterprise by a good twenty years, had biometric monitoring of away teams, Refit-style deflector technology and other seemingly anachronistic stuff that we never saw in TOS.

Clearly the result of intensive R+D following in the wake of the Xindi attack.
IMO it's the same future seen through different eyes. See this thread: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=7268416
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Old November 17 2012, 03:29 PM   #36
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

It may well be that the renaming of Archer's ship was the only change to the timeline caused by the intervention of Picard and crew at the launch of the Phoenix or recall Cochranes statement about cybernetic zombies and the events of "Regeneration". The ramping up of Starfleet technology may well have been in anticipation of someday encountering the Borg.
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Old November 17 2012, 04:59 PM   #37
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Its a series of TV shows/films. How can a ship created for a an iteration of the show created in 2001 appear in earlier iterations? The NX-01 omissions in older versions of Star Trek has nothing to do with the E's time trip.
You appear to be getting "in-universe," and "out-universe" mixed up and combined. From a production point of view, obviously the NX-01 wasn't design when we first saw the legacy display. However, in-universe the NX-01 didn't appear among the legacy ships Decker and the Ilia-unit looked at in TMP, nor was the NX-01 present in the observation lounge wall in TNG series.

In-universe, something changed to place it there. If the NX-01, a ship with a prominent history (first this and that), wasn't present, it's not being initially named Enterprise could account for it's absence.

In the original history, Deanna never told Cochrane the Enterprise's name, because she wasn't there the first time through.

I'm not confusing them at all. I just don't go for the alternate universe explanation for every little "discrepancy". Even for things, stories and concepts I don't like. For a prequel like Enterprise the most logical explanation is every thing that happened is supposed to happen. And all those thing were always part of the history and lead to TOS.

I find the need to discredit Enterprise ( or any of the films or shows) to be petty and counter-productive.
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Old November 18 2012, 01:06 AM   #38
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

I never said I didn't "like" the ship being named Enterprise, simply exploring a realistic reason for a models absence from a wall.

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Which universe is the alternate one again?
In Storm Front, part two, Daniels said this: The timeline's resetting itself .... all of the damage he caused, it never happened.

From that I get that basically the first two seasons of ST: Enterprise existed in an alternate universe. What the NX-01 did originally in the prime universe is difficult to say. But whatever it was, it would have been at least somewhat different than the events depicted on the show.

The first two season are not a part of the history of the other series, any more than the events of In A Mirror Darkly.

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Old November 18 2012, 01:11 AM   #39
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

T'Girl wrote: View Post
I never said I didn't "like" the ship being named Enterprise, simply exploring a realistic reason for a models absence from a wall.
I don't see going for the alternate universe/changed timeline solution as realistic.
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Old November 18 2012, 01:18 AM   #40
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

And I never said Alternate Universe, either. However "Enterprise" is undeniably an altered timeline since from the very first episode the actions of "Future Guy" and his Suliban frontmen brought Starfleet into contact with the Klingon Empire prematurely. No small change that.
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Old November 18 2012, 01:35 AM   #41
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

E-DUB wrote: View Post
And I never said Alternate Universe, either. However "Enterprise" is undeniably an altered timeline since from the very first episode the actions of "Future Guy" and his Suliban frontmen brought Starfleet into contact with the Klingon Empire prematurely. No small change that.
How so? All we know about first contact with the Klingons is happened centuries before TNG and it didn't go well. We dont even know which first contact it was. Klingon and Humans? Klingon and Vulcans? Klingons and Andorians? Its a bit a vague. The Human and Klingon FC meets the criteria since it happens roughly two centuries prior to TNG and as a result relations between Humans and Klingons got off to a rocky start that pretty much went downhill from there. So no change in what was shown in Enterprise and what was mentioned in TNG.
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Old November 18 2012, 02:05 PM   #42
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

T'Girl wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Which universe is the alternate one again?
In Storm Front, part two, Daniels said this: The timeline's resetting itself .... all of the damage he caused, it never happened.

From that I get that basically the first two seasons of ST: Enterprise existed in an alternate universe. What the NX-01 did originally in the prime universe is difficult to say. But whatever it was, it would have been at least somewhat different than the events depicted on the show.

The first two season are not a part of the history of the other series, any more than the events of In A Mirror Darkly.
That doesn't hold up at all. Daniels was referring to the damage Vosk and the other factions did when did when the TCW went nuclear, creating the alt-WWII timeline.

Events from seasons 1-3 are repeatedly referenced in season 4. The Enterprise crew lived it, and other characters like Captain Hernandez and Soval and especially Shran were familiar with those events. Some of the stories, like the Vulcan reformation arc and the Vulcan/Andorian war, were continuations of previous stories.

I really don't see the need to explain real-life story retcons (i.e. rewriting Klingon/human first contact, ignoring parts of "Balance of Terror") in an in-universe perspective, let alone in a way that makes Enterprise, or part of it at least, essentially all a dream.
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Old November 18 2012, 04:27 PM   #43
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
I never said I didn't "like" the ship being named Enterprise, simply exploring a realistic reason for a models absence from a wall.
I don't see going for the alternate universe/changed timeline solution as realistic.
Me neither. Enterprise always happened; there was never a timeline (outside of the 'Borg assimilated Earth' one that's seen briefly in ST:FC) where it did not. Picard and co. changed nothing in that film, except putting things back the way they always were. ENT is not a result of Picard's actions. In-universe, even TOS existed in a timeline where ENT has already happened.

As for why the NX-01 wasn't in the rec room scene in TMP: Do we really need to go through this shit again? For the thousandth fucking time: Not every real world Enterprise was in it either. For instance, it only had the FIRST aircraft carrier, not the second. Yet obviously both carriers exist. They simply had to pick and choose which ships to show in that scene. Just because the NX wasn't in it, doesn't mean it didn't exist!
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Old November 18 2012, 04:51 PM   #44
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
I really don't see the need to explain real-life story retcons (i.e. rewriting Klingon/human first contact, ignoring parts of "Balance of Terror") in an in-universe perspective
I do.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Just because the NX wasn't in it, doesn't mean it didn't exist!
I never say it didn't exist, my position is that it originally possessed a different name.

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Old November 18 2012, 04:53 PM   #45
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Re: Celebrity paradoxes

^ Okay then, remember what I just said about aircraft carriers. The CVN-65, the real carrier that was (is?) recently retired, was not in that scene. Yet obviously it exists. So how can you claim that the NX didn't exist, because it wasn't in that scene, yet you presumably would not say the same thing about CVN-65?
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