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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: Was the ending Deus Ex Machina?
Yes 24 37.50%
No 40 62.50%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 10 2012, 07:48 PM   #166
Hugh Mann
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Dukat was a narcissist, yes, but he, as you say, cannot outweigh simply arithmetic through his narcissism. I am strongly doubtful that Dukat wouldn't have had some clue as to the true strength of the Dominion; you do not simply "mislead" someone on such a matter. An appropriate analogy would be the United States trying to lie to the leader of an extraterritorial entity about its true size in order to let it be annexed into the Union. It doesn't really make sense.

You also seem to be taking a lot of leaps. A conquering army is not the same as an occupation army; the Dominion's large fleet of warships sent through the wormhole at the end of Sacrifice of Angels would've been mostly useless for controlling a domestic population. It is also clear that the Dominion does not strictly rely on simple force to keep its empire together, and that it does make extensive use of diplomacy to build complex alliances that help maintain the integrity of their union. Yes, the threat of force is always there in the background (but then again it is as well in the Federation, so it's a wash), and it is also clear that the Dominion is strongly authoritarian in nature, but it is also quite clear that they do not require large numbers of ships and troops absolutely everywhere at all times to keep the Dominion intact. There is no reason to suspect that the Dominion would've fallen apart domestically if they sent a substantial portion of their military forces to the Alpha Quadrant.

Little, if anything, in the episode proves that the Dominion is vastly more powerful than the Federation. There is more evidence, in my view, that shows the Dominion is not, though it is not conclusive either way.
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Old November 10 2012, 08:03 PM   #167
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Hugh Mann

Dukat didn't really care about arithmetic/feasibility when it came to his narcissism.
Christopher's example with the bajorans proves this.


It was made clear in 'The search' that the ONLY think keeping conquered species in line is the threat of the jem'hadar. NOT diplomacy, nor anything else.
The founders are FAR too paranoid to allow themselves to become vulnerable to domestic revolt for a foreign adventure.

Meaning, the massive dominion occupation army (needed for a massive territory) was in the gamma quadrant.
So was the main dominion industrial base.

The dominion expeditionary force and its rushedly installed industrial base was close to overwhelming the federation+klingons and kept up with the federation+klingons+romulans.

If an expeditionary force could do that, then the dominion, in its entirety, is FAR stronger than the federation+klingons+romulans.


The ease with which the dominion created jem'hadar (and ships) leads to the same conclusion.
As does the age of the dominion - 2000 years spent conquering.


On the other hand, there is little evidence that the dominion is weaker than the alpha quadrant powers - of course, you named none.
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Old November 10 2012, 08:56 PM   #168
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
Little, if anything, in the episode proves that the Dominion is vastly more powerful than the Federation. There is more evidence, in my view, that shows the Dominion is not, though it is not conclusive either way.
You have got to be kidding me. The Federation was losing the war badly for most of the duration of the story arc. Even with the Klingons and Romulans as allies, they were at a disadvantage. The Jack Pack calculated that total defeat was inevitable. We were shown over and over again that even the fraction of the Dominion forces in the Alpha Quadrant were an overwhelming threat, far more powerful than the good guys. Of course they were, because this is fiction, and the bad guys are always presented as a superior and unstoppable force so that the stakes are as high and dramatic as possible and so that the heroes' eventual triumph is more impressive.

And again, why are we even debating this? The wormhole couldn't have been destroyed. It simply wasn't an option. I recommend you watch the show again, because you don't seem to be remembering it very well.
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Old November 10 2012, 09:04 PM   #169
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Well the conversation seems to be over. Perhaps we should have a list of what we can and cannot think and discuss, as to avoid presenting differing opinions.
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Old November 11 2012, 03:52 AM   #170
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
Little, if anything, in the episode proves that the Dominion is vastly more powerful than the Federation. There is more evidence, in my view, that shows the Dominion is not, though it is not conclusive either way.
The Federation was losing the war badly for most of the duration of the story arc. Even with the Klingons and Romulans as allies, they were at a disadvantage. The Jack Pack calculated that total defeat was inevitable. We were shown over and over again that even the fraction of the Dominion forces in the Alpha Quadrant were an overwhelming threat, far more powerful than the good guys. Of course they were, because this is fiction, and the bad guys are always presented as a superior and unstoppable force so that the stakes are as high and dramatic as possible and so that the heroes' eventual triumph is more impressive.

And again, why are we even debating this? The wormhole couldn't have been destroyed. It simply wasn't an option. I recommend you watch the show again, because you don't seem to be remembering it very well.
You have got to be kidding me. The war was going badly for the Federation during the arc that culminated in Sacrifice of Angels, but this has nothing to do with the size of the Dominion. The "Jack Pack" calculated total defeat as inevitable--and were proven wrong, so I don't see why you would bring that up. We are also not shown that the Dominion is vastly superior in all respects to the Federation and its allies. Once the Romulans intervened, the war began to go quite well for the Federation (culminating in the successful invasion of Chin'Toka, which the Dominion couldn't even afford to properly defend with an actual fleet, relying instead on the orbital weapons platforms that proved unreliable and mostly useless compared with a proper fleet) until the Breen intervened in turn and rendered 2/3rds of the Allied fleet strength useless.

I also never said the wormhole could've been destroyed (at that time; in Tears of the Prophets it was at least rendered unusable for a short period). Nor did I suggest the Dominion is substantially weaker than the Alpha quadrant powers. It seems much more reasonable to assume that they were roughly an even match, with an edge to the Dominion because they, at the start of the war, were much more mobilized, as could be expected of such an entity.

I don't see anything that shows it is unreasonable to suppose that the Dominion is not vastly more powerful than the Federation. It seems more likely to me that the Dominion (attempted to) deploy the bulk of their strength to the Alpha quadrant in order to eliminate the threat they perceived from the powers there. Besides, history has shown us that any empire that requires such a massive occupation army at all times is not feasible, as it will fall apart under the economic weight of it all. In "The Search" it was stated that the threat of Jem'Hadar was the only thing keeping the species in line, but that can be interpreted in ways other than the way in which you are interpreting it; it does not have to mean that there are fleets of Jem'Hadar ships flying around everywhere, but rather an emphatic way of identifying the Jem'Hadar as the violent arm of the state (which is the role of the military and police in every society). Certainly, we see no on-screen (e.g. visual as opposed to spoken) evidence that the Jem'Hadar are everywhere; in "The Die is Cast" they have only a fleet of 150 ships defending the Founders' homeworld, all attack ships and none of the stronger battlecruisers. Wouldn't they have a stronger force protecting the most valued planet in their empire if the Dominion really had such a large military force?

And I agree, by the way, that Dukat is not always well-grounded in reality, but I absolutely stand by my point that he would never have even thought of trying to defy the Dominion if it really were an order of magnitude or more stronger than the Federation. If the Dominion had tens or hundreds of thousands of ships, even he wouldn't have thought it possible for the Cardassian Union, with its few thousands of ships, to defy the Dominion and rise above it. This is one key piece of evidence that you are ignoring.
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Old November 11 2012, 04:19 AM   #171
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

The Battle of the Omarion Nebula was a trap laid by the Founders. They infiltrated the Tal'Shiar, and were two steps ahead of the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar fleets.

At this point Federation, Klingon, Romulan and Cardassian shields were useless against the Dominion weapons. 150 attack ships were more than enough to destroy the fleet and cripple the Tal'Shiar and Obsidian Order.

The Founders were not on the World that was attacked. It's possible that the infiltrator changed Romulan and Cardassian records to show this world to be the Founders home, while the real home was light years away. Then devices were placed on the planet to give false life readings to her invading fleet.

And even if the right world was attacked, that it was a trap, false sensor readings would mean the Founders had just moved to a new world.

Now, what does all this have to do with the OP's question?
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Old November 11 2012, 07:44 AM   #172
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

I'd have to take the middle ground on how powerful the Dominion was.

I wouldn't say the Dominion was vastly more powerful than the Federation, but at least earlier on, the storyline suggested they were more militarily powerful than the Federation-and the Klingons combined.

They were able to attempt to field an extra 2800 ships during the war, which even the Federation admitted that if they got through, meant the end of the war.

Later assesment from Vreenak showed how deficient the Federation situation was in comparison to the Dominion.

The Dominion seemed to be capable of setting up a self reliant system no matter where they were, once the Jem Hadar, White, and ship building factories were in place.

It would have been a replica of the Gamma Quadrant Dominion, had they won.

Problem was, they never really got them into place.

Now, on the other hand, once the Romulans entered the war, the momentum came to a hault.

The ships are spread thin, they're retreating, they're losing planets.... obviously something happened on their side.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; November 11 2012 at 08:54 AM.
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Old November 11 2012, 08:12 AM   #173
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

I wanted to ask and confirm something. Wasn't the Dominion planning on invading the Federation before the discovery of the wormhole? It's been years since I watched DS9 through completion. I recall that the Founders had the intention to invade the Alpha and Beta Quads prior to making contact with Sisko and co. The Bajoran wormhole only accelerated their plans. I do remember the Jem'Hadar being exicted about fighting Klingons and even knew about their signature weapon the bat'leth despite first contact being made prior to the Dominion traversing the wormhole. With how easy the Dominion took out a Galaxy class and how resistant it's ships were to type X phasers. It could be plausible the Dominion had been planning this war for decades if not centuries beforehand.
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Old November 11 2012, 09:24 AM   #174
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
I wanted to ask and confirm something. Wasn't the Dominion planning on invading the Federation before the discovery of the wormhole? It's been years since I watched DS9 through completion. I recall that the Founders had the intention to invade the Alpha and Beta Quads prior to making contact with Sisko and co. The Bajoran wormhole only accelerated their plans. I do remember the Jem'Hadar being exicted about fighting Klingons and even knew about their signature weapon the bat'leth despite first contact being made prior to the Dominion traversing the wormhole. With how easy the Dominion took out a Galaxy class and how resistant it's ships were to type X phasers. It could be plausible the Dominion had been planning this war for decades if not centuries beforehand.
I believe it was Wolfe who mentioned that in the DVD interviews, but it never was made explicit in the series that was the actual case. Still, an organization as large as the Federation would have drawn the attention of the Dominion at some point due to subspace communications or exploratory probes. The Feds would have at least been able to star chart the area near the wormhole for Sisko to identify the nearby star when he and Dax first go through.
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Old November 11 2012, 12:33 PM   #175
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

They had using the Quadros One probe as stated in "Emissary"
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Old November 11 2012, 02:05 PM   #176
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

About the strength of the dominion:

The last strategy of the dominion was to retreat behind the cardassian borders, increase jem'hadar/ship production, and, in ~2 years, when ready, to attack the federation/klingon/romulan alliance.

Sisko's words for what would happen then were ~'God help us'.

The dominion expeditionary force, in a mere 2 years, by using only cardassian resources, can become more than a match for the federation, klingons and romulans combined.

What about the dominion proper - in 2000 years, by using the vastly larger resources of the gamma quadrant dominion?
The federation, klingons and romulans are outmatched, by far.
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Old November 11 2012, 04:19 PM   #177
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
Once the Romulans intervened, the war began to go quite well for the Federation (culminating in the successful invasion of Chin'Toka, which the Dominion couldn't even afford to properly defend with an actual fleet, relying instead on the orbital weapons platforms that proved unreliable and mostly useless compared with a proper fleet) until the Breen intervened in turn and rendered 2/3rds of the Allied fleet strength useless.
Yes, I think Christopher somewhat exaggerated the bad position the Federation was in (I actually think DS9 is interesting in that it showed the good guys having a slight upper hand for a large part of the war) but that doesn't change his broader point. Your whole position hinges on the idea that the Dominion sent most of it forces into the AQ and that idea is simply illogical both from the perspective of what we know about the Founders and the perspective of simple strategic common sense. To sum it up: The Founders are hugely paranoid. The whole reason they set up the Dominion was to protect themselves. They have a huge territory in the GQ to control and protect from rebellion. They probably have neighbouring powers in the GQ that they consider a threat (for all we know, they might have been leading ten parallel wars of conquest in the GQ while "our" Dominion War was happening). Even if they had no current threats in the GQ, surely they had to consider the possibility of a new threat arising (to go for the classic example, a Borg attack). The Founders are risk averse, slow and methodical, long term thinking. With all that, the idea that they would send most of their military to a distant part of the galaxy to which they are connected only through a single choke point that can always disappear (however small that posibility might be), simply doesn't make sense.

As for Dukat, I think he deluded himself into thinking the Dominion would have allowed the Cardassians to basically run the AQ territories and hugely increase their own power. And once the time was right, a few well placed internal sabotage actions (block the wormhole, take out the ketracel white supply) would have left the Cardassians in a position to challenge the Dominion forces in the AQ. All in his mind, of course. There's no way the Dominion would have allowed any of that.
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Old November 11 2012, 08:20 PM   #178
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Aside from a couple victories the Federation seemed to be losing the war forthe most part, which was why Sisko felt teh need to get the Romulans into the war on their side.
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Old November 11 2012, 08:23 PM   #179
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
About the strength of the dominion:

The last strategy of the dominion was to retreat behind the cardassian borders, increase jem'hadar/ship production, and, in ~2 years, when ready, to attack the federation/klingon/romulan alliance.

Sisko's words for what would happen then were ~'God help us'.

The dominion expeditionary force, in a mere 2 years, by using only cardassian resources, can become more than a match for the federation, klingons and romulans combined.

What about the dominion proper - in 2000 years, by using the vastly larger resources of the gamma quadrant dominion?
The federation, klingons and romulans are outmatched, by far.
It wasn't just Cardassian resources, they brought lots and lots of stuff with them from the Gamma Quadrant to augment the place along with tons of ships.
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Old November 17 2012, 08:53 AM   #180
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
About the strength of the dominion:

The last strategy of the dominion was to retreat behind the cardassian borders, increase jem'hadar/ship production, and, in ~2 years, when ready, to attack the federation/klingon/romulan alliance.

Sisko's words for what would happen then were ~'God help us'.

The dominion expeditionary force, in a mere 2 years, by using only cardassian resources, can become more than a match for the federation, klingons and romulans combined.

What about the dominion proper - in 2000 years, by using the vastly larger resources of the gamma quadrant dominion?
The federation, klingons and romulans are outmatched, by far.
It wasn't just Cardassian resources, they brought lots and lots of stuff with them from the Gamma Quadrant to augment the place along with tons of ships.
All of which are available to the gamma quadrant dominion in FAR greater abundance.
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