Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemesis?

[AllStarEntprise]

Sci wrote:

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For me, the biggest problem with NEM is that Shinzon's motivations are cloudy. We're told he self-identifies as a Reman and is a Reman nationalist... but out of nowhere, we discover that he hates Picard and wants to destroy Earth.

I mean, I guess I can understand the idea that he'd irrationally come to hate Picard. But the idea that he'd turn his genocidal rage against Earth instead of Romulus as the end of his life approaches just doesn't make sense. Romulus has been oppressing and terrorizing the Remans for centuries; as a Reman nationalist, Shinzon's goal should be to destroy all life on Romulus before he dies.

ETA:

And the purple rubber outfit. Seriously, whose idea was that?

I was right there with you man. Shinzon's motivations should've been the genocidal destruction of Romulus based on his background. Him hating Picard and wanting to destroy Earth makes sense though. It's not about justice or revenge for the Remans. It was about Shinzon destroying everything Picard stood for. Shinzon forging his own legacy and having Picard's erased along with Earth. Shinzon says this in the movie.

He didn't attack the Romulans because they supported his coup and he needed their support to fight the Federation. In the ENT episode "The Aenar" the Admiral Valdore said the Romulan goal was unlimited expansion and that conquest is the best goal for Romulans. With that mindset the Romulans in NEM supporting a war with the Federation isn't unlikely. Gain control of the entire Alpha and Beta Quads with the potential for a Gamma Quad invasion.

[Sci]

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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I was right there with you man. Shinzon's motivations should've been the genocidal destruction of Earth based on his background. Him hating Picard and wanting to destroy Earth makes sense though. It's not about justice or revenge for the Remans. It was about Shinzon destroying everything Picard stood for. Shinzon forging his own legacy and having Picard's erased along with Earth. Shinzon says this in the movie.

He didn't attack the Romulans because they supported his coup and he needed their support to fight the Federation.

Well, that's what I'm saying -- why is he so fixated on Picard, Earth, and the Federation? Why does he hate the longstanding enemies of the culture that brutally oppressed his adopted people and sent him to die in a mine? It makes no sense; as a Reman nationalist, his rage should be directed at the Romulans, not the Federation. Hell, even if he doesn't really care about the Remans, his rage should still be directed at the Romulans, because they're the ones who enslaved him.

And "the Romulans" didn't support his coup. A faction of Romulan Imperial Fleet admirals supported it, but they were planning on using him as their puppet, and he knew it. Both sides were planning to betray the other.

[AllStarEntprise]

Sorry that should've read " Shinzon's motivations should've been the genocidal destruction of Romulus based on his background." I edited to reflect it. Well Shinzon says the echo triumphing over the voice was a goal for him. Legitimizing his existence by destroying Picard. Forging his own legacy and erasing everything Picard stood for. If Earth and the Federation were destroyed then everything Picard did, all the treaties, discoveries and battles he won become annulled since no one will remember him.

[King Daniel]

"Witness the victory of the echo over the voice." - Shinzy had a HUGE inferiority complex, because of his shitty life in Reman mines, because he's "just" a clone. And through his incredibly twisted worldview, saw the solution in utterly annihilating Picard's life, his world, any trace of his comparitively cushy, easy, privileged life. He wanted to bring humanity down to his level, so to speak. Show them what it's like to live without comforts of Earth and the Federation.

Is it really any less believable than Hitler's quest to exterminate the Jewish?

[Jeyl]

Proven himself? No, nononononoono. Skyfall may have had it's fun moments, but the writing was not one of it's best points. We have supposed professional and experienced characters make totally moronic decision that almost rivals that of Prometheus stupidity. And to give credit to John Logan alone is pretty drastic when you consider the fact that two other writers wrote this film and Logan was brought in to make changes, and his changes are so obvious.

John Logan is not so much a writer who can write stories on his own, he's a writer who works to indulge the people he works with. With Nemesis being dictated as a Picard and Data storyline, he pretty much writes the movie as though Data and Picard are the only characters who matter, and like in Generations, there should be moments where the actors can indulge themselves in things that we've never seen their characters actually do. Kirk LOVES to ride horses (since when?) and Picard LOVES to ride four wheeled cars (since when?).

[Sci]

KingDaniel wrote:

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"Witness the victory of the echo over the voice." - Shinzy had a HUGE inferiority complex, because of his shitty life in Reman mines, because he's "just" a clone. And through his incredibly twisted worldview, saw the solution in utterly annihilating Picard's life, his world, any trace of his comparitively cushy, easy, privileged life. He wanted to bring humanity down to his level, so to speak. Show them what it's like to live without comforts of Earth and the Federation.

Is it really any less believable than Hitler's quest to exterminate the Jewish?

Well, yes, because Hitler was a member of a privileged oppressing group, not an oppressed group. It just doesn't make sense that Shinzon would direct his genocidal urges at anyone other than the people who had actually enslaved him.

[sonak]

Sci wrote:

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Well, yes, because Hitler was a member of a privileged oppressing group, not an oppressed group. It just doesn't make sense that Shinzon would direct his genocidal urges at anyone other than the people who had actually enslaved him.

you're assuming that Shinzon's motivations have to be rational. I think the Hitler analogy is actually a decent one. Hitler had no personal reasons to hate Jews, and his "racial theories" were the worst sort of pseudoscientific garbage. And, having fought alongside Jews in WWI, he KNEW that the "stab in the back" was a myth.

Shinzon may have had no RATIONAL reason to hate Picard and to take "revenge" by going after Earth, but the "resentment of the voice by the echo" thing makes a twisted sort of sense from a psychopath's point of view.

[M'rk, son of Mogh]

Sci wrote:

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It just doesn't make sense that Shinzon would direct his genocidal urges at anyone other than the people who had actually enslaved him.

Since when do people who do horrific evil deeds make SENSE?

They never, ever make ANY sense to me, no matter what rationale they try to use about their upbringing or world views.

Shinzon, as far as I'm concerned, fits with the best of them.

[slappy]

Sci wrote:

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For me, the biggest problem with NEM is that Shinzon's motivations are cloudy. We're told he self-identifies as a Reman and is a Reman nationalist... but out of nowhere, we discover that he hates Picard and wants to destroy Earth.

I mean, I guess I can understand the idea that he'd irrationally come to hate Picard. But the idea that he'd turn his genocidal rage against Earth instead of Romulus as the end of his life approaches just doesn't make sense. Romulus has been oppressing and terrorizing the Remans for centuries; as a Reman nationalist, Shinzon's goal should be to destroy all life on Romulus before he dies.

ETA:

And the purple rubber outfit. Seriously, whose idea was that?

Also, it would've been a very good Trek moment to have Picard helping defend Romulus from Shinzon just because it's the right thing to do. The fact that'd he put his crew's life on the line to fight beside their enemy could've been a big step toward peace with the Romulans. Also, why not have Picard get through to him at the end? That might've been a nice way to end the TNG legacy.

[Joker]

Dream wrote:

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They should have gotten a writer that actually UNDERSTOOD Trek.

Oh, fuck "understanding Trek".

Bring someone who understands story telling.

[Sci]

M'rk, son of Mogh wrote:

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Since when do people who do horrific evil deeds make SENSE?

Most people, even genocidal war criminals, have motivations that are discernable, even if their actions are irrational.

Shinzon's motivations are dramatically arbitrary; he does not target Earth because the Federation has ever done anything to him. He targets Earth because the plot demands it, irrelevant of whether or not it's consistent with the rest of his depicted motivations.

[Dream]

Joker wrote:

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Oh, fuck "understanding Trek".

Bring someone who understands story telling.

Yeah, that would have worked too.

Sci wrote:

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Shinzon's motivations are dramatically arbitrary; he does not target Earth because the Federation has ever done anything to him. He targets Earth because the plot demands it, irrelevant of whether or not it's consistent with the rest of his depicted motivations.

It really does make no sense.

I think it would have been better if Shinzon's plan was actually to destory Romulus. The story could have been the crew defending an enemy and ending with the starting of a friendship between the two cultures. It certainly would have been more interesting than defending the space hippies in Insurrection.

I just can't get over how much the clone and B4 plotlines sucked.

[sonak]

Sci wrote:

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Most people, even genocidal war criminals, have motivations that are discernable, even if their actions are irrational.

Shinzon's motivations are dramatically arbitrary; he does not target Earth because the Federation has ever done anything to him. He targets Earth because the plot demands it, irrelevant of whether or not it's consistent with the rest of his depicted motivations.

just because his motivations don't satisfy your concerns of rationality doesn't make them arbitrary. He was going after Earth to prove that he could defeat the Romulans' greatest enemy and to get revenge on Picard. His motivations may not be the best for a villain in the series, but they're no worse than Nero's.

[AllStarEntprise]

^Think about the two villains who have the most in common with Shinzon. Khan Noonien Singh and Nero.

Khan wanted the Genesis torpedo for unspecified reasons. We the audience were told what Genesis was capable of and we were shown Khan is definitely a villain. Letting Khan have Genesis is like giving an arsonist matches. We have to keep them away from him at all costs. While you could argue since Khan's intentions for the Genesis were never stated the movie is lacking. I think the quest and battle for it is what save TWOK from that trap.

Nero lost his planet and went on a tirade against the Federation in an alternate timeline set 125 years in the past of the one he came from. Vulcan and Earth had nothing to do with Romulus blowing up in the Prime future but he attacks them anyway for his own narrow minded reasons. Logically Nero should've went to Romulus in this alternate timeline to warn his people. Instead he waited for 25 years to get revenge on Spock. This is dialogue straight from the movie, and until JJ confirms on screen Nero and the Rommies were at Rura Penthe, the canon is Nero waiting out in space for Spock to show up. Nero attacking the Federation planets in this past timeline makes no sense because it does nothing to stop the supernova that will hit Romulus in 125 years time.

Shinzon was the legitimate Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire. You could argue he was merely a figure head and his Romulan collaborators intended to betray him but that's only speculation. Shinzon states his goal is conquest. As a military leader with dozen of battle victories over the Dominion. The logical course of action for any Romulan victory in the Alpha Quadrant is the destruction of Earth. It's the head of Starfleet and focal point of the Federation. Picard, Riker and Shinzon all state and thereby confirm this is Shinzon's motive for attacking Earth.

Comparing Shinzon to Nero in this regard. Shinzon has a degree of class and sense to his actions. Destroying Earth is a tactical move in his future campaign against the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Nero is a blunt object attacking those he thinks deserve to die. The Narada has transwarp drive. Confirmed by the special features of the DVD. Why Nero didn't just make a quick hop home to Romulus and share his future tech and warn the council of the impending danger is beyond me.

I guess when you're just a "simple miner" comprehending the balance of power on a galactic scale is too much for you. Shinzon was trained by the League of Shadows, took down Batman, and Gotham. He's the man with the plan. Haha

[sonak]

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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^Think about the two villains who have the most in common with Shinzon. Khan Noonien Singh and Nero.

Khan wanted the Genesis torpedo for unspecified reasons. We the audience were told what Genesis was capable of and we were shown Khan is definitely a villain. Letting Khan have Genesis is like giving an arsonist matches. We have to keep them away from him at all costs. While you could argue since Khan's intentions for the Genesis were never stated the movie is lacking. I think the quest and battle for it is what save TWOK from that trap.

Nero lost his planet and went on a tirade against the Federation in an alternate timeline set 125 years in the past of the one he came from. Vulcan and Earth had nothing to do with Romulus blowing up in the Prime future but he attacks them anyway for his own narrow minded reasons. Logically Nero should've went to Romulus in this alternate timeline to warn his people. Instead he waited for 25 years to get revenge on Spock. This is dialogue straight from the movie, and until JJ confirms on screen Nero and the Rommies were at Rura Penthe, the canon is Nero waiting out in space for Spock to show up. Nero attacking the Federation planets in this past timeline makes no sense because it does nothing to stop the supernova that will hit Romulus in 125 years time.

Shinzon was the legitimate Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire. You could argue he was merely a figure head and his Romulan collaborators intended to betray him but that's only speculation. Shinzon states his goal is conquest. As a military leader with dozen of battle victories over the Dominion. The logical course of action for any Romulan victory in the Alpha Quadrant is the destruction of Earth. It's the head of Starfleet and focal point of the Federation. Picard, Riker and Shinzon all state and thereby confirm this is Shinzon's motive for attacking Earth.

Comparing Shinzon to Nero in this regard. Shinzon has a degree of class and sense to his actions. Destroying Earth is a tactical move in his future campaign against the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Nero is a blunt object attacking those he thinks deserve to die. The Narada has transwarp drive. Confirmed by the special features of the DVD. Why Nero didn't just make a quick hop home to Romulus and share his future tech and warn the council of the impending danger is beyond me.

I guess when you're just a "simple miner" comprehending the balance of power on a galactic scale is too much for you. Shinzon was trained by the League of Shadows, took down Batman, and Gotham. He's the man with the plan. Haha

I agree. Shinzon's motivations have more sense to them than Nero's. Not exactly tough competition, but still...