I need to run this by some people...

[teacake]

That is acceptable especially if the carriage windows have those little curtains.

[Gaith]

teacake wrote:

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Ideally the coffee would be in take away cup (I forget what you call this in america, my automatic translation is on the fritz) and you would be walking down a pier or along a beach. That gives you the activity Gaith so highly values in his Guide.

For sure. I fully approve of a coffee first date if you've got some good scenery to walk along; it's the sitting in a Starbucks or even a nicer cafe drinking an upper I object to.

Kommander wrote:

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If it's a first date, I'd say that coffee isn't only a good idea, but the only acceptable one ....

Most of this is true of bars as well, but drinking on a first date can be risky for a first date. Alcohol helps people relax, but it changes behavior in other ways, especially with judgment abilities. Say the date ends with sex. The next morning things might be fine, but it can also be awkward, and might even be rape.

I've done a number of late afternoon/early evening bar first dates, and I assure you they're entirely acceptable. Also, and I mention this in the Guide, if you're boozing on a date, be an adult and pace yourself. I've found that, unless one party's really disinterested in the other, most gals will stick around for two drinks, perfect for a nice, mellow buzz in the $10 range. Assuming the first, maybe only date runs under two hours, leaving you with a fairly full evening to fill, I'd far rather be left with a nice buzz than a caffeine energy jolt.

And if a sane-seeming mildly buzzed gal happens to go home with you, the chances of her crying rape the next day are, happily, small enough to be negligible. And if she crosses the line into drunkenness on the way/once you've arrived, calling her a cab (because remember, you're still only responsibly buzzed yourself) will demonstrate your decency and trustworthiness. I'd call that a win-win myself...

Kommander wrote:

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So I thought, people that like Renaissance Faires generally like chainmail as well, I make chainmail, so I made her some bracelets. It was very thoughtful and an awesome thing for me to do. Of course, had I hesitated and made a thread about it, I'm sure some people would be telling me it was a creepy thing to do and I should just ask her out for coffee.

And yet, if you'd taken that hypothetical advice, this gal might have become your girlfriend by now.

[Namikaze]

I lurk more than I post, I suppose it is because I think it is redundant offer my two cents when everyone else has, especially when threads like this give me a headache because they become more about the contemplation of the act of asking a girl out rather than sharing the outcome of the attempt.

I'm not going to give you any advice on asking the girl out, that has been done, I will say that if you do have a relationship together, there are more memorable experiences to look forward to than asking the girl out. Just as you'll have the chance to make awesome memories that will be more precious than the one you share of your first date or the agreement to partake in one.

But for the love of Pete, Sam, your sanity or God, just ask her out. And whatever happens or whatever your opinion is of my post, I challenge you to refrain from posting in this thread until you've asked the girl out!!!!!!

[Kommander]

Gaith wrote:

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I've done a number of late afternoon/early evening bar first dates, and I assure you they're entirely acceptable. Also, and I mention this in the Guide, if you're boozing on a date, be an adult and pace yourself. I've found that, unless one party's really disinterested in the other, most gals will stick around for two drinks, perfect for a nice, mellow buzz in the $10 range. Assuming the first, maybe only date runs under two hours, leaving you with a fairly full evening to fill, I'd far rather be left with a nice buzz than a caffeine energy jolt.

And if a sane-seeming mildly buzzed gal happens to go home with you, the chances of her crying rape the next day are, happily, small enough to be negligible. And if she crosses the line into drunkenness on the way/once you've arrived, calling her a cab (because remember, you're still only responsibly buzzed yourself) will demonstrate your decency and trustworthiness. I'd call that a win-win myself...

It's possible to have sex after drinking and it be fully consensual, but it is more difficult to determine, especially in a first date situation. I personally like to avoid it. If it's a woman that I've never had sex with before, no sex if she has had so much as a sip of beer. If I have, it depends on the situation.

Gaith wrote:

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And yet, if you'd taken that hypothetical advice, this gal might have become your girlfriend by now.

After two weeks of dating? The phrase "not a chance in Hell" comes to mind. Had I asked her out the first day of class, at this point I'd consider using the "girlfriend" label. Whether or not I hesitate in asking someone out, I always take my time with making commitments. Not that it matters...

Guess who has a boyfriend that she neglected to mention until it was obvious that I was about to ask her out? She's mono, so that means no romantic involvement outside of that relationship. Given the conversation that followed and texting with her as I write this, I gather that things aren't quite going well. This could be a problem.

People tend to assume that being polyamorous, I don't respect the boundaries of other's relationships and that I'm okay with cheating. I only become romantically involved with the consent of everyone involved, I do not participate in cheating (I learned that lesson the first time when I found myself on the wrong end of a Desert Eagle.) She knows this now, but the boyfriend may see me as a threat and get all possessive.

Her and I are becoming friends now. If she comes to me with relationship problems, I can't turn her away. I've been in this situation before, and I have rules in place, but I am biased. I've handled things like this well before, but I've also handled them not so well. So hopefully I can do the former again if this situation becomes a problem.

[teacake]

Gaith wrote:

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For sure. I fully approve of a coffee first date if you've got some good scenery to walk along; it's the sitting in a Starbucks or even a nicer cafe drinking an upper I object to.

At least that would weed out the hipsters. Five minutes into your coffee and you'd know after hearing all the chilled disdain for everything around you.

[Gaith]

^ Ah, but if you've got a good beer in front of you, it's all the easier to gently mock their snark parade. I guess? I don't think I've ever been on a date with a hipster. There was one girl who I guessed dressed vaguely hipster-y, but she was legitimately awesome, and not at all blase...

Kommander wrote:

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Guess who has a boyfriend that she neglected to mention until it was obvious that I was about to ask her out?

Sorry to hear it, hombre. Still, at least you tried. Onwards and upwards, and all that.

[Kommander]

Gaith wrote:

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Sorry to hear it, hombre. Still, at least you tried. Onwards and upwards, and all that.

Sorry? I regrew the pair of testicles I very clearly had misplaced, and I'm closer to her now than I was before. It may not be what I'd ideally want right now, but that might eventually change or it might not. Either way, I've gained something here and there's nothing to be sorry about.

[teacake]

It's great to see you live your seat of your pants dating life with no regrets

[Kommander]

^ I don't see how it would work otherwise.

Although, given the polyamory thing, the situation is pretty much the same as if I was dating her, its just the restrictions are tighter. Typically, when dating someone with a primary partner, there are restrictions on sex, displays of affection, and time spent together, and it's the same here. The boundaries are a little more well defined than usual. Sex: Don't. Affection: keep it friendly, and time: we'll see. However, while more clear, boundaries aren't perfectly defined. The same types of issues are likely to come up.

Also, she hasn't told me to shut up about discussing boundaries yet. I can tell she finds it mildly annoying, but understands it's necessary. To describe the situation as bluntly as possible: I want to fuck her, her boyfriend doesn't want me to, and she promised her boyfriend she won't fuck anyone but him for the time being. I promised I'd respect the rules of their relationship, she doesn't know me well enough to know if I'll keep that promise, and I don't know her well enough to know if she keeps the promises she makes to her boyfriend, and the boyfriend and I don't know each other at all. That is a recipe for unpleasantness if not handled properly. Although, it doesn't seem like there will be any major problems here. I'm not used to that.

[Gaith]

Glad you're being upbeat...

Kommander wrote:

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Also, she hasn't told me to shut up about discussing boundaries yet. I can tell she finds it mildly annoying, but understands it's necessary.

Wait, what? You signalled you wanted to ask her out, she said she had a boyfriend, and... I guess this is when you told her you're poly, she said she's not... Maybe I'm missing something here, and granted, I'm not poly, but I hardly see why this calls for a formal discussion of boundaries, any more than her saying she wasn't interested in dating you but would like to keep being friends would.

I myself have never had a notable interest in someone already in a relationship, so I guess I don't know what it's like. All I know is watching the first two seasons of Smallville and wanting to throttle Clark until he straight-up asked Lana to dump the jock for him already.

('Course, he knew for a fact the guy was a dick...)

[teacake]

It's a good thing you don't live in my country, I can't imagine that a guy your age peppily discussing boundaries would get much.

[Kommander]

Gaith wrote:

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Wait, what? You signalled you wanted to ask her out, she said she had a boyfriend, and... I guess this is when you told her you're poly, she said she's not... Maybe I'm missing something here, and granted, I'm not poly, but I hardly see why this calls for a formal discussion of boundaries, any more than her saying she wasn't interested in dating you but would like to keep being friends would.

I myself have never had a notable interest in someone already in a relationship, so I guess I don't know what it's like. All I know is watching the first two seasons of Smallville and wanting to throttle Clark until he straight-up asked Lana to dump the jock for him already.

('Course, he knew for a fact the guy was a dick...)

She's known I'm poly since one of our first few conversations. I have a polyamory symbol tattooed on my left ring finger. She asked me about it and what it meant, so I told her. Telling someone I'm poly right after asking them out and being told their involved with someone tends to come off as "I'm cool with it if you cheat on him," and that is not a good idea even if it was the case. Which, I'm not, or dishonesty in general for that matter.

The issue of boundaries is very important. What friendship is and is not distinct, especially not for me. My various friendships have included everything typical of romantic relationships, and the distinction between friendship and romantic relationship tends to be more about choosing how to define a relationship more than actual substance.

While monos typically have more of a distinction between romance and friendship, there is variation. For some it's as simple as "no sex" or "no falling in love/expressing feelings of love," or both. On the other end, some feel it's inappropriate to have opposite-sex friends at all and tolerate it if their partner insists on it, and plenty of things in between.

I have a general idea of what sorts of things are and are not okay, but there are some things I'm unclear on. She's hugged me before. Was that okay in the first place? Is it not okay now? Can I hug her or do I have to wait for her to hug me. Can we hug whenever we want or should we limit it to only every once in a while? Can I touch her affectionately in other ways as long as they're not overtly sexual? Some of these things come naturally to me and I need to know if I'm likely to cross the line without realizing it.

There's also the opposite of that. I would assume that I'm not allowed to kiss her. However, it's possible that they would think it's okay as long as we're not making out, and that quick, closed-mouth kisses are fine. If that's the case, I would probably like to do that at some point.

The emotional boundaries are even less clear cut. It's known that I'm attracted to her and like her, apparently that's okay as long as I don't act on it. What if I eventually fall in love with her? is that a problem, or only if I act on it? What does "acting on it" mean? Can I say "I love you" to her?

Most of that was just examples of why it's important, a lot of it isn't relevant now and I'll wait until it is. Right now it's mostly about communication. So far I've agreed to not act on any romantic feelings I may have, to not try to convince her to let me act on those feelings, and to not give in if she tries either of those things. She has agreed to bring any concerns about me to my attention, and to ask me questions before making assumptions. These kinds of things are necessary because I know from plenty of experience that stupid bullshit gets in the way very easily but can be avoided if everyone pays attention, and if the arrangement isn't going to work I'll catch on quicker and can possibly back away before I become too attached to her.

teacake wrote:

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It's a good thing you don't live in my country, I can't imagine that a guy your age peppily discussing boundaries would get much.

What? Someone questioning my appeal to women? This has never happened before. I am confused and hurt by this. Seriously, this is going to take some time to sort out. There may be crying.

[Gaith]

Kommander wrote:

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These kinds of things are necessary because I know from plenty of experience that stupid bullshit gets in the way very easily but can be avoided if everyone pays attention, and if the arrangement isn't going to work ....

"Arrangement"? Dude, you two have a nascent friendship, not a job!

Kommander wrote:

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Can I touch her affectionately in other ways as long as they're not overtly sexual? Some of these things come naturally to me and I need to know if I'm likely to cross the line without realizing it.

Good rule of thumb, IMHO: don't do anything she doesn't do first, and do less of it.


Ironically, it sounds to me as though you may be coming down with a case of oneitis, for which the cure is to go out and meet ten other women. If, in the course of your parallel developing friendship with this gal, she lets on that her bf's a dick, tell her she deserves to be treated better. If her relationship fails, the sooner you become aware of that, the better. Until then, however, it's probably best to direct your romantic/+sexual hopes elsewhere... unless, of course, you elect to straight-up ask her to dump her guy and give you a shot.

[Kestra]

I think you're reading him entirely wrong.

[Kommander]

Gaith wrote:

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"Arrangement"? Dude, you two have a nascent friendship, not a job!

The two are actually somewhat similar, hence the point of the comic.

Gaith wrote:

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Good rule of thumb, IMHO: don't do anything she doesn't do first, and do less of it.

For the most part, yes. That's probably one of the things I won't need to mention unless it becomes relevant. Of course, she could cross the line and I wouldn't necessarily know.

Gaith wrote:

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Ironically, it sounds to me as though you may be coming down with a case of oneitis, for which the cure is to go out and meet ten other women. {...} Until then, however, it's probably best to direct your romantic/+sexual hopes elsewhere... unless, of course, you elect to straight-up ask her to dump her guy and give you a shot.

This does not apply to my way of thinking, and would take a very long time to explain. It's easier just to say, read up on polyamory if the subject is of academic or personal interest to you. I can probably dig up some links if you'd like.[/quote]

Gaith wrote:

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If, in the course of your parallel developing friendship with this gal, she lets on that her bf's a dick, tell her she deserves to be treated better. If her relationship fails, the sooner you become aware of that, the better.

I need to be cautious about this sort of thing. I don't trust myself to decide if her boyfriend is a dick or not. To put it bluntly: he's interfering with what I want, I'm biased, and I'm not going to be a dick. For me to interfere in their relationship, he would have to be acting abusive toward her, or she would have to explicitly state that she wants the relationship to end. If abuse was happening, and I get her out of it, I would recommend she talk to a real counselor and not pursue romance with anyone for at least several months.

Kestra wrote:

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I think you're reading him entirely wrong.

I'd say he and I have different perspectives and past experiences, we intrepret things differently, and neither one of us is wrong or right.

What I said elsewhere really bothered you, didn't it? Fine! I like you now. So lets hug and then have a lengthy discussion about boundaries.