The characters and universe post-TOS

[BillJ]

TREK_GOD_1 wrote:

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On screen, all we know is that Pike only commanded the Enterprise, and Spock served with him, so this suggests the ship had an extended mission beyond the more familiar 5 years of Kirk's era.

Only problem is Leila Kolami. Evidently, some assignment put Spock in a position to have a relationship with her and there's no mention of it taking place aboard the Enterprise, she says she knew him on Earth.

[Timo]

On screen all we know is that Pike only commanded the Enterprise

To be a bit anal-retentive, onscreen facts don't include Pike "only" commanding that ship - merely him commanding that ship.

He did command the Enterprise just before Kirk did, so there'd be fairly little time for him to have another ship before he goes teaching cadets and gets crippled; and he did seem a bit wet behind the ears in "The Cage" where he already had the Enterprise. But there's still plenty of time for him to do other things with Spock (things possibly involving Spock's established historical colleagues Leila Kalomi and Gary Mitchell), and onscreen indication that he did do other things besides commanding starships (namely, participating in those cadet cruises).

Since Pike's dramatic role in "The Menagerie" is to be another Kirk, a scary example of what could have happened to our main hero, we could well speculate that he also started very young, his possible first command was similarly insignificant, and that he then stayed for years or decades with a legendary ship, being ultimately promoted out of that command and into a junior Admiral post because he was a public hero figure. But Pike's story could have been different, too.

Timo Saloniemi

[T'Girl]

Timo wrote:

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The novels maintain a continuity of sorts on Saavik's backstory.

Didn't one or more of the novels have Spock and Saavik wedding at some point? This possibly being the wedding that Picard spoke of in the show.

I might be remembering a fan fiction.

[Timo]

The Sherman/Shwartz books have this storyline; the wedding comes in the first chapter of Vulcan's Heart. Saavik subsequently becomes a sort of a Diane Duane heroine for operations inside the Romulan Star Empire. I don't know if she appears much in the novels beyond this - save for "flashback" style stories dealing with the movie era, I mean. Chronologically, her story seems to conclude in the 2370s in the Vulcan's Soul books where she still deals with the Romulans.

Timo Saloniemi

[JoeZhang]

Timo wrote:

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The Sherman/Shwartz books have this storyline; the wedding comes in the first chapter of Vulcan's Heart. Saavik subsequently becomes a sort of a Diane Duane heroine for operations inside the Romulan Star Empire. I don't know if she appears much in the novels beyond this - save for "flashback" style stories dealing with the movie era, I mean. Chronologically, her story seems to conclude in the 2370s in the Vulcan's Soul books where she still deals with the Romulans.

Timo Saloniemi

according to memory beta - she is last seen in 2279 where she is still a Starship captain - I wonder after Spock disappears in 2384 (it is 2384 right?) they will magic up a Son or something in the pocket books.

[BillJ]

JoeZhang wrote:

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according to memory beta - she is last seen in 2279 where she is still a Starship captain - I wonder after Spock disappears in 2384 (it is 2384 right?) they will magic up a Son or something in the pocket books.

2387.

[Burma Ryder]

Although I enjoyed the TOS movies for the most part, none of them ever really "felt" like TOS Trek. The most obvious and recurring plot-hole (as suggested by the OP) is of course the fact that the original crew always found some way to be reunited on the Enterprise. This is simply not feasible. People's careers do not work that way. Compounding this is the fact that Starfleet is supposed to be a meritocracy which implies that the key members of the greatest crew should all have had much higher ranking positions and/or ships of their own by TWOK.

For me, TOS ended with the last televised episode. Everything that came after it (TAS, the movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT) were attempts at manufacturing something that was magical precisely because that magic was the product of spontaneous chemistry and circumstance.

[TREK_GOD_1]

Timo wrote:

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To be a bit anal-retentive, onscreen facts don't include Pike "only" commanding that ship - merely him commanding that ship.

"Only" means it was the only ship mentioned, so that's all we have to go on.

and he did seem a bit wet behind the ears in "The Cage" where he already had the Enterprise.

Really? I've viewed pilot Pike as weathered, hence his longing to leave the service (more than just what happened on Rigel).

[Timo]

"Only" means it was the only ship mentioned, so that's all we have to go on.

Yeah, I know - sorry about deliberately interpreting it the other way. I wanted to emphasize that Pike is not one of those special cases known to have only commanded one starship in his career, or started out big, or something. Unlike, say, Picard, who made it explicit that the sizable Stargazer was his first starship command.

As for fresh vs. seasoned, I saw Pike's fatigue as something he'd be encountering for the very first time, but would soon overcome, achieving Kirk-like greatness despite mounting Redshirt casualties. Speeding back home after losing a few men in a landing party incident is perhaps valid behavior for a CO, but when contrasted with Kirk's habits it looks timid and insecure.

Timo Saloniemi

[CoveTom]

T'Girl wrote:

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My personal preference is that after fairly brief refit, command of the Enterprise was turned over to Will Decker and he took her out again. Years and many missions later, Decker brought the Enterprise back to Earth (by this time Kirk is already CoSO) and the rebuild process began.

Two things from TMP work against this, however.

First, when Scotty is speaking to Kirk in the travel pod, he refers to Decker as an "untried captain," which certainly wouldn't be true if Decker had been out there commanding the Enterprise for a number of years.

Second, when Kirk is explaining to Decker why he is taking command, he cites his experience of "five years out there dealing with unknowns like this." If Decker had also been out there for several years, Kirk's experience wouldn't be a factor.

[T'Girl]

TREK_GOD_1 wrote:

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"Only"

We know that Pike was in command of the Enterprise thirteen years prior to the events of The Menagerie and Spock served with him for eleven years, four months. At some point he became a fleet captain, and Kirk took over the Enterprise directly from him. Kirk met Pike when he became fleet captain, but that could have been some other time (separate from) Kirk assuming command of the Enteprise. Arriving and departing captains don't alway meet.

While Pike was in command of the Enterprise at two known points, the in-between time is open for interpretation.

Really? I've viewed pilot Pike as weathered, hence his longing to leave the service (more than just what happened on Rigel).

The weariness and pressure that Pike was feeling might have indicated that being in command was new to him. And his thoughts of leaving the service could have predated his command of the Enterprise too, he did seemed generally homesick.

CoveTom wrote:

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Two things from TMP work against this, however.

Both of your points are good ones, and I agree. However, I still have a problem with Starfleet letting the Enterprise just sit in orbit for a protracted time period, perhaps years, before beginning the refit/rebuild process.

If not Decker taking her out again, then another unknown captain. There's no official onscreen (canon) listing of the Enterprise's captains. And while Kirk did recommend Decker for command, there no indication that Decker is Kirk's direct successor.

[CoveTom]

T'Girl wrote:

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Both of your points are good ones, and I agree. However, I still have a problem with Starfleet letting the Enterprise just sit in orbit for a protracted time period, perhaps years, before beginning the refit/rebuild process.

Do we know, though, that there was a "protracted time period"? I know many fans have tried various possible timelines. But from TMP, I believe the only references to the passage of time we have are Kirk's statement that he's spent "two and a half years as Chief of Starfleet Operations" and Scotty's statement that they've "just spent 18 months redesigning and refitting the Enterprise." So that only leaves one year of definite time that the Enterprise was not undergoing refit and also not under Kirk's command.

The producers of TMP went to a lot of trouble, too, to try and pretend that the crew hadn't aged much. It seems likely to me that they intended TMP to be 2.5 years after the conclusion of Kirk's five year mission, and for Decker to have taken command and begun the preparations for refit immediately after that mission.