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Old November 8 2012, 12:30 AM   #31
Guy Gardener
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

How big is the Great Barrier around the galactic core?

You don't have to imagine a 10 thousand light years out from the centre of the universe impenetrable fence, that everyone has to go the long way around, because it's there.
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Old November 14 2012, 01:02 PM   #32
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

Because a straight shot from the Gamma side of the Wormhole, would take you through Galactic center, so, you have the extra distance going around Galactic Center, you don't have that issue with Kazon Territory, because you're already on the outer edge.
Doesn't work that way. Earth sits basically on the border between Alpha and Beta (Trek fact) halfway between core and rim (real word fact) so a clear line of sight past the core would mean going about 20 degrees off the axis connecting Earth to the Core. Or, in other words, 20 degrees off the galaxy-dividing line that is the Alpha/Beta border as well as the Delta/Gamma border.

Both the starting point next to the Ocampa planet and the far end of the Gamma wormhole meet the specs. At least according to the onscreen map. Indeed, the Gamma wormhole end meets the specs better!

You don't have to imagine a 10 thousand light years out from the centre of the universe impenetrable fence, that everyone has to go the long way around, because it's there.
Or then there's this teensy weensy energy cloud fairly close to Earth, right between the human homeworld and the galactic core, and no one has bothered to take the long route around it before the late 2280s. After that date, of course, everybody starts taking the scenic shortcut right through the color show, as they learn there's nothing impenetrable about the Barrier after all.

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Old November 14 2012, 01:52 PM   #33
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

We already now that VOY despite being more advanced than the Ent-D is in fact slower, after all in "Where No One Has Gone Before" it'll take the Enterprise over 300 hundred years to traverse the 2.7 million ly. So the maximum number of years would be 399 otherwise it would be over 400 years.

But then again it's always plot speed.

They picked the figure 70 year figure for a number of reasons

1.>To make the journey sound long impling that they wouldn't expect to see home in their lifetime.

2.>To make it easy for the audiance to follow, because obvioulsy the audiance could follow the fact that one season might span a few years.
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Old November 14 2012, 02:28 PM   #34
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

Also, 1,000 ly per year is a nice round figure that works just fine for most purposes.

And it's the same thing as 300 ly per month, or 100 ly per week, or 50 ly per day, or 20 ly per hour. One just needs more pit stops and cooldown periods during longer runs...

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Old November 15 2012, 01:12 AM   #35
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

^What didn't help VOY was having a line about "Sustainable crusie velocity of Warp 9.975" in the pilot.

Sustainable tends to mean or can mean that it can be maintained for long periods without causing damage. If they had simple not included the word sustainable it would still have worked at saying it's a fast ship
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Old November 15 2012, 01:21 AM   #36
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

But they don't say how long it can sustain those speeds for, even if we are to assume that it's some factory specification standard. Given that time we saw Picards enterprise racing those Romulans, I doubt it could be longer than 10 hours.

You go any longer than 10 hours at warp 9.975 and the Federation would be a dim memory in the rear view mirror.
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Old November 15 2012, 01:32 AM   #37
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

Yes but in TNG when the Enterprise was doing those high warp speeds, ot was made clear that they could only do it for short duratins.

As you say they don't say how long they could sustain those speeds, but by using the word sustainable it would tend to indicate long periods of time.

As I said they could have removed the word sustainable without having a dentremental effect on the overall context.
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Old November 15 2012, 02:02 AM   #38
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

I always looked at Warp 9.975 as being the top speed the Voyager could hold the longest. The ship probably could go even faster--maybe even to Warp 9.99--but at extreme risk, IMO.
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Old November 15 2012, 02:07 AM   #39
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Yes but in TNG when the Enterprise was doing those high warp speeds, ot was made clear that they could only do it for short duratins.

As you say they don't say how long they could sustain those speeds, but by using the word sustainable it would tend to indicate long periods of time.

As I said they could have removed the word sustainable without having a dentremental effect on the overall context.
That's what I said.

Does long mean hours or months.

I'm thinking of Tin Man were a Romulan ship blows up because they push their engines past specification trying to beat Enterprise to their prize... Although the script doesn't completely connect with my memories. I may be splicing it with the one where Kirk keeps going faster no matter how much Scottie kept saying "Gid lahrd MIn! ye guhnna Kull Is Arrrl!"
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Old November 15 2012, 09:26 AM   #40
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

The funny thing is, while the speed of warp 9.975 is referred to as a cruising speed of some sort thrice in the show, the word "sustainable" is only used once, by Stadi in "Caretaker" - and Alicia Coppola fumbles the delivery, actually stuttering "S-stable cruise velocity".

So there's nothing canonically sustainable about warp 9.975...

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Old November 15 2012, 09:58 AM   #41
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

Please talk some more about Alicia's mouth.
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Old November 15 2012, 02:03 PM   #42
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Terror Grin wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
In Q Who it was stated the Enterprise had been sent 7,000 light years away from the edge of Federation Space. They also said it would take them two years and seven months to get back.

So... Voyager was much slower than the old Enterprise? It should have only taken 30 years.
Actually, it is said that the Enterprise was 7000 ly from where it was previously, not the edge of Fed space. The edge of Fed space could be closer than the original position.

As for Janeway, she would have had a much shorter trip if she'd headed for the Bojaran wormhole.
The map I've seen, shows a Direct path from The Caretaker to the Gamma Quadrant entrance of the Wormhole, may be a tiny bit shorter, maybe a couple years. However, that would entail crossing the spiral arms, through areas sparsely populated with Stars, which would mean fewer opportunities for resupply, etc. Plus, who knows what may happen to that wormhole in the 68 years it took to get there (if you were indeed able to save 2 years). If the wormhole wasn't available when they got there, they'd be twice as far away from home as when they started.
I don't remember the exact location of the GQ terminus ever being established. However, the location of Voyager as established in Year of Hell P1 places her out on the rim, near the GQ-DQ border (right where she would have to be, if she were to be 70k ly from Earth and still be in the galaxy.) From that position, virtually the entire GQ is closer than 70k ly. And one could argue that Janeway wasn't aware, but I'm fairly sure that the Prophets, Orbs and Celestial Temple were established as being millennia old before Voyager's fateful trip. Chances of collapse in the next few decades seems remote.

As for others commenting about the Dominion, pretty sure it was established that Voyager knew virtually nothing about them so the threat assessment wasn't even available. Do think it was established where the Borg were though (could be wrong) and Janeway chose to go that way anyway...

(also, plenty of main sequence stars between the arms; the arms shine brighter because that is where the bulk of star formation occurs. Home of very bright, short-lived stars. Also the place most likely to find type II supernovae.)
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Old November 15 2012, 02:25 PM   #43
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

I don't remember the exact location of the GQ terminus ever being established.
The onscreen map from VOY helpfully gives that position, too.

However, the location of Voyager as established in Year of Hell P1 places her out on the rim, near the GQ-DQ border (right where she would have to be, if she were to be 70k ly from Earth and still be in the galaxy.)
Depends on how big you think the galaxy is. The general ballpark figure is 100,000 ly across for the disk, with Earth about halfway from the center, but modern data prefers 120,000 ly, with Earth two thirds out. Either way, it's perfectly possible to draw a circle with 70,000 ly radius around Earth and have a significant part of that remain inside the galaxy - symmetrically in Delta and Gamma!

virtually the entire GQ is closer than 70k ly.
But not the wormhole, because DS9 dialogue puts it at 70,000 ly from Bajor (and thus from Earth), too. The pilot mentions 90,000 ly, but that was apparently an erroneous estimate, later amended.

And one could argue that Janeway wasn't aware
What she was aware of was that the portmaster of her last port of call had very recently DESTROYED the wormhole (even if only in his dreams) because there was an INVINCIBLE FOE on the other side. Odds are that the wormhole would have ceased to exist immediately after Janeway's departure, but even if not, the route would be impassable because, well, the foe was invincible.

Do think it was established where the Borg were though (could be wrong) and Janeway chose to go that way anyway...
Before Janeway's departure, nobody indicated knowledge of Borg whereabouts. However, some years later, in ST:FC, Beverly Crusher somehow knew the Borg resided in the Delta Quadrant. We don't know where she learned that from or how.

But the Delta Quadrant is big, and odds of missing the Borg altogether are immense. The Gamma wormhole mouth is a point target, and the odds of missing the invincible foe there are exactly zero.

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Old November 16 2012, 02:32 AM   #44
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

Timo wrote: View Post
I don't remember the exact location of the GQ terminus ever being established.
The onscreen map from VOY helpfully gives that position, too.
a link to an image would be nice; not seeing that info in the trekcore screencaps
However, the location of Voyager as established in Year of Hell P1 places her out on the rim, near the GQ-DQ border (right where she would have to be, if she were to be 70k ly from Earth and still be in the galaxy.)
Depends on how big you think the galaxy is. The general ballpark figure is 100,000 ly across for the disk, with Earth about halfway from the center, but modern data prefers 120,000 ly, with Earth two thirds out. Either way, it's perfectly possible to draw a circle with 70,000 ly radius around Earth and have a significant part of that remain inside the galaxy - symmetrically in Delta and Gamma!
To be fair, the current estimate is 100,000-120,000 ly. The distance of Earth from the center though is currently understood to be in the range of 24,000-28,000 ly. Study of the SMBH at the center of the galaxy has allowed that latter figure to become reasonably accurate in recent years.
And yep, from Earth, there is a nice bit of arc at 70K ly. However...
But not the wormhole, because DS9 dialogue puts it at 70,000 ly from Bajor (and thus from Earth), too. The pilot mentions 90,000 ly, but that was apparently an erroneous estimate, later amended.
a 70k ly arc with Voyager at the center shows that the entirety of the Earth arc (within the galaxy) is closer than 70k. A quick experiment in Google Sketchup this afternoon yielded maximum distance approximations of 44k ly for a 100k ly Milky Way, 56k ly for a 110k ly MW and 67k for a 120k ly MW. These approximations are straight line distances from the location of Voyager shown here to the point where the Earth arc crosses those diameters in the GQ. Since the GQ terminus of the WH is along that Earth arc as well then I stand by my original statement; Janeway took the long way home.*
And one could argue that Janeway wasn't aware
What she was aware of was that the portmaster of her last port of call had very recently DESTROYED the wormhole (even if only in his dreams) because there was an INVINCIBLE FOE on the other side. Odds are that the wormhole would have ceased to exist immediately after Janeway's departure, but even if not, the route would be impassable because, well, the foe was invincible.
No doubt she was briefed on the situation around DS9, since she was operating in the area however, Star Fleet has a way of dealing with invincible foes. Even befriending former foes. I would think that ol' Kate "Starfleet" Janeway would expect an established Federation presence in the GQ by the time Voyager arrived.

*(FWIW, I do realize that the show needed, for dramatic purposes, to be about the voyage home, not to some distant wormhole. )
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Old November 16 2012, 08:53 AM   #45
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Re: 70 years to the Alpha Quadrant?

a link to an image would be nice; not seeing that info in the trekcore screencaps
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...VoyagerMap.jpg

This map was seen on some monitors in the final season, and reproduced as is in the Star Charts booklet. Supposedly, those squares on the grid are 10,000 ly on side.

The major discrepancy with the rest of canon here is that "False Profits" involves a planet that according to Data in TNG "The Price" was only some 200 ly from the Delta/Gamma border...

There are relatively few additional all-galaxy maps in VOY. The important ones would be from "Message in a Bottle", showing the Hirogen network (and perhaps not being aligned along the Quadrant borders, but tilted 45 degrees wrt that, considering), and from "Pathfinder", showing Barclay's guesstimates on the hero ship position (but with a generic, unrealistic background spiral galaxy image rather than the more frequently used graphic that also forms the background of the route map, and without any other helpful features):

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...bottle_018.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...0/PDVD_062.jpg

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