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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old November 10 2012, 10:40 AM   #31
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Ensigns of Command question..

The whole galaxy knew? How?
Because Data would tell them. Clearly, Data was pro-survival, so he wouldn't stay behind and get killed, meaning he'd be an excellent messenger.

Is that why England surrendered as soon as Germany started firing those missiles at them in WW2?
Umm, you're getting the timeline a bit wrong there. England was certain of winning the war already when the first missiles fell.

Australia has sent troops to the middle east, and we're not the most powerful nation in the world.
It's not as if anybody could strike back at you, though.

There's the good old joke about the Lithuanian who gets three wishes from the good fairy. Three times, he asks for China to invade Lithuania, for an obvious reason: China would have to march through Russia six times! Buffer nations are an important concept in the waging of wars, and a reason not to go for actual wars of conquest too often.

In this episode, however? It would not have been a battle, but rather a slaughter.
True of the Alamo, too. I just pick that as an example because it's one of those events where the defender could have fled, as opposed to the numerous events where the defender had no option but to die.

... so it made no sense for the people to stay and be destroyed with it.
I wonder if Gosheven insisted on destroying the aqueduct and all the other achievements before pulling out?

Timo Saloniemi
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Old November 10 2012, 02:28 PM   #32
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

^ The Sheliak probably destroyed the colony anyway (even when the colonists evacuated), so I doubt Gosheven bothered with that.

As for the Alamo: I repeat, there was symbolic value in one group of humans staying to fight another group of humans. The Alamo was much more of a fair fight than this ever could be. Gosheven's colonists attempting to stand up to the Sheliak would be like trying to shoot down a jet airliner, barrelling down the runway where you know it will run you over and crush you, with a BB gun. Or, more to the point, trying to blow up a bomb that is about to land on your house and destroy you, using nothing but a set of firecrackers.

In any case, the result is the same: What possible value could there be in a slaughter that has literally, absolutely no chance of ever going your way? It's not symbolic, just silly.
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Old November 11 2012, 05:30 AM   #33
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: Ensigns of Command question..

Timo wrote: View Post
The whole galaxy knew? How?
Because Data would tell them. Clearly, Data was pro-survival, so he wouldn't stay behind and get killed, meaning he'd be an excellent messenger.
I doubt Goshy was the type to make a sacrifice for the benefit of others like that.

Is that why England surrendered as soon as Germany started firing those missiles at them in WW2?
Umm, you're getting the timeline a bit wrong there. England was certain of winning the war already when the first missiles fell.
Then why would Germany attack?

It's not as if anybody could strike back at you, though.

There's the good old joke about the Lithuanian who gets three wishes from the good fairy. Three times, he asks for China to invade Lithuania, for an obvious reason: China would have to march through Russia six times! Buffer nations are an important concept in the waging of wars, and a reason not to go for actual wars of conquest too often.
By that logic, no country would ever go to war with someone unless they are next door neighbours.

In this episode, however? It would not have been a battle, but rather a slaughter.
True of the Alamo, too. I just pick that as an example because it's one of those events where the defender could have fled, as opposed to the numerous events where the defender had no option but to die.
Like I said, I have very little knowledge about the Alamo.

... so it made no sense for the people to stay and be destroyed with it.
I wonder if Gosheven insisted on destroying the aqueduct and all the other achievements before pulling out?

Timo Saloniemi
Who knows.
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Old November 12 2012, 02:09 PM   #34
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Ensigns of Command question..

I doubt Goshy was the type to make a sacrifice for the benefit of others like that.
Well, he did say he wanted to die defending that which was his. It would be "for the benefit of others" only in the sense that others would then enjoy the privilege of watching his statue and reading about his greatness.

Then why would Germany attack?
In this particular situation, purely because of symbolism. By the time the V-2 bombardment finally became effective, Germany had already lost the war, and the wise solution would have been to start negotiations with the West before the East overran Germany. But Hitler wanted to negotiate from a position of strength only, and such things would never be available to him again. So it was really just a matter of going down fighting to make a good impression in the history books.

By that logic, no country would ever go to war with someone unless they are next door neighbors.
The logistics of anything else would have been intolerable in most periods of history anyway. But today it's customary to go to war far away, without any sort of ambitions of conquest. Because then any retaliation will face the problem of buffer nations or other logistical problems, unless the initial victim is a superpower itself. And superpowers don't get invaded.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old November 12 2012, 04:17 PM   #35
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: Ensigns of Command question..

Timo wrote: View Post
I doubt Goshy was the type to make a sacrifice for the benefit of others like that.
Well, he did say he wanted to die defending that which was his. It would be "for the benefit of others" only in the sense that others would then enjoy the privilege of watching his statue and reading about his greatness.
It seems to me that he meant that he was willing to die if his death had a chance of creating a victory for the colony, so that others of the colony could continue to live there after he was gone.

Then why would Germany attack?
In this particular situation, purely because of symbolism. By the time the V-2 bombardment finally became effective, Germany had already lost the war, and the wise solution would have been to start negotiations with the West before the East overran Germany. But Hitler wanted to negotiate from a position of strength only, and such things would never be available to him again. So it was really just a matter of going down fighting to make a good impression in the history books.
But they attacked before that. It was an attack that started the war, after all.

But we're getting further and further off topic.
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Old November 13 2012, 11:52 AM   #36
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Ensigns of Command question..

But they attacked before that. It was an attack that started the war, after all.
A classic modern era attack at that: a military superpower of the time well prepared to crush its smaller and technologically and doctrinally outdated Polish counterpart. Essentially, a zero-risk endeavor, especially when the USSR had agreed not to take advantage and the UK and France could be expected not to react, either. But Poland did defend - and at the borders, too, where defense was guaranteed to fail, rather than at practical fallback positions. For both symbolic reasons and for reasons of alliances, but mainly out of sheer miscalculation.

Quite a good analogy to "Ensigns of Command", too. Hitler's might had been theoretically demonstrated even if not practically proven; the Poles had been sold out in treaties, unknown to them; and it could also be argued that Poland was the creation of hardy pioneers, built out of the ashes of a completely destroyed older realm with the same sort of vigor the colonists had demonstrated in the episode, and that this work had taken place in "good faith" conditions where earlier treaties had indicated Poland could finally be rebuilt after its many forced divisions.

So perhaps not quite so far from where we started after all...

Timo Saloniemi
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