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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 12 2012, 09:14 PM   #121
Worf'sParmach
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

T'Girl wrote: View Post
lurok wrote: View Post
Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
I always figured that was one of the reasons Sirella doesn't like Worf and didn't want him in their house.
Thank you for this. Makes a lot of sense.
I've been assuming for years it was Worf's earlier discommodation, but this makes more sense. It's more personal to Martok's house.
It's probably a little of both, which just ads to her annoyance. Why would Martok want a dishonored man who punked their son in their house? But from Martok's perspective, the only Worf he knows is the one who helped him in the prison camps.

And your arguments for the Kurn situation have been very well thought out. The opposing one was so non-sensical I didn't bother commenting.
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Old November 12 2012, 09:55 PM   #122
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
And your arguments for the Kurn situation have been very well thought out. The opposing one was so non-sensical I didn't bother commenting.
If you have no counter-arguments, you should at least have the courage of saying so instead of hiding behind baseless dictates.
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Old November 12 2012, 10:00 PM   #123
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Perhaps they're simply not inclined to argue with you given your penchant to dismiss established information as "that's not realistic" in an attempt to damage others' arguments.

There's little point to trying to have a discussion with someone when they respond by plugging their ears.
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Old November 12 2012, 10:11 PM   #124
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

DonIago wrote: View Post
Perhaps they're simply not inclined to argue with you given your penchant to dismiss established information as "that's not realistic" in an attempt to damage others' arguments.

There's little point to trying to have a discussion with someone when they respond by plugging their ears.
I dismiss established information as not realistic because it is NOT realistic.
And I dismiss it as immoral because - guess what - according to all real cultures that created and maintained a wealthy, technological civilization, it IS immoral - as I have shown (you being the one with the habit of plugging your ears).

But - fine.
Let me reformulate:
If you have no counter-arguments - beyond fictional klingon "culture" fan-boyism -, you should at least have the courage of saying so instead of hiding behind baseless dictates.
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Old November 13 2012, 04:23 AM   #125
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

I was under the impression that we were talking about a Star Trek episode, and particularly in this mini-subthread-tangent, about Worf's actions in this episode, thus I thought speaking about things that actually happened in the episode, within the context of the episode and greater Star Trek mythos, were valid directions of discussion.
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Old November 13 2012, 06:16 AM   #126
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

You're just saying that because you have no valid counter-arguments.
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Old November 13 2012, 06:54 AM   #127
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

FKnight wrote: View Post
I was under the impression that we were talking about a Star Trek episode, and particularly in this mini-subthread-tangent, about Worf's actions in this episode, thus I thought speaking about things that actually happened in the episode, within the context of the episode and greater Star Trek mythos, were valid directions of discussion.
And I was under the impression we were talking about the morality of an action; and morality of the greater star trek mythos with regards to it.

If you discount real world morality, then all your "moral" outrage throughout this thread is a joke; mere fantasy non-sense.
Thus, it deserves to be treated as such.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; November 13 2012 at 04:05 PM.
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Old November 13 2012, 07:08 AM   #128
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

I still wish they had Worf think about Kurn after he got his honor back and feel a bit upset knowing that Kurn could've kept his identity and gotten their honor back.
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Old November 13 2012, 02:00 PM   #129
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Worf got his honor back from joining the House of Martok, for Kurn to regain his he would also have had to of joined.

It would have been good for Worf to have referenced him, especially when he was with his son, something like "we are the last members of the family"
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Old November 15 2012, 01:00 PM   #130
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

So I finally had to sate my curiousity about Drex and googled. Apparently he's still knocking about in STO. But is that canon?
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Old November 15 2012, 02:19 PM   #131
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Reading along, I'm wondering when did this become about what would happen in "Today's Real World" when talking about a Science Fiction Television Series set hundreds of years into the future???

About reality: www.cbsnews.com/2100-500522_162-3054259.html

I linked to this article because it deals with 2 things: Suicide and Psychology. As far as suicide is concerned, there are REAL live cultures that believe, or have believed, it is honorable to take one's life to avoid shame and disgrace. I always figured that the Klingon Warrior was at least somewhat based off of the Japanese Samurai. There is glory in battle and falling on your sword to avoid dishonor and all that good stuff... BUT, because we are dealing with FICTIONAL show, there are some differences. Even with assisted suicide, the person is committing the final act themselves. In the Klingon culture here, that's not acceptable. I believe that if Kurn were to have killed himself, IIRC, then that would have been an act of weakness (I'm guessing because he couldn't "endure" the pain/shame), so it had to be done by someone else, like Worf, so that Kurn could make it into Stoval Kor (sp?). Since he blamed Worf for his predicament, he expected him to "fix" things. He pressured his brother into actions that Worf didn't really want to take. You can call Worf right or wrong for that, but to me the whole situation is just tragic because had his brother been able to endure for a few years (if that), then he could have had his honor restored.

This brings me to psychology. I do think that his brother was suffering from some sort of depression/grief based off of having his position/status stripped away from him. It would have been good if he could have gotten help for that, but the Klingon culture doesn't seem like one where there's a lot of therapy going on, and besides I think Kurn would have rejected it if Worf offered him therapy sessions with a psychiatrist that could treat him. That has something to do with this fictional cuture (that's not too unlike some real ones in today's world, even in America today you have men that don't want to get help and talk about their feelings because it's not "manly"). So, that wasn't really an option.

(As an FYI, for anyone interested, for some reason the whole question of tampering with someone's brain made me think of this time period in American Medicine in regards to the human brain/psychology: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0aNILW6ILk )

I understand the desire for doses of realism, I really do, but to get upset that a Science Fiction series had the audacity to create a culture (that actually started out 2 series prior to this one) and build on that culture's sense of "honor practices" (think of "honor killings" in places like India and the Middle East and tell me with a straight face that this isn't possible in the REAL WORLD), and then adhere to those practices within that series is a bit ludicrous to me. I think that was the point of the episode. You didn't have to like it, and no, it wasn't nice and neat. It was messy and left all sorts of questions behind. I still come back to the conclusion that it was tragic, but Worf did what he thought was right at the time. I suppose he didn't mention Kurn later on because Kurn was no longer his brother, and that time had passed...
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