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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old November 3 2012, 08:28 PM   #46
Hartzilla2007
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
I'm very disappointed to hear this. I loved IFM, and this makes me far less enthusiastic about reading the new trilogy.
Don't be - It's Mack, who's *always* a good read. He certainly won't have deliberately set out to "undo" anything.

No, this trilogy actually sounds pretty fucking great to me
Sounds like he undid something pretty big in the first book to me.
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Old November 3 2012, 08:47 PM   #47
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Halliwell wrote: View Post
At least if you're going to reset something or ignore it as far as a book's storyline at least pick a book that's, you know, actually a really bad book.
It's not a particularly well liked book on these boards.
Really? Always looked otherwise to me - the score/poll thread has lovely scores...
Yeah, apologies - that's a sweeping generalization if ever I've written one. What I should have said is that SOME readers have some issues with parts of the book which weren't the responsibility of the author.

Although I am one of them, editorial requirements notwithstanding, I enjoyed it.
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Old November 3 2012, 09:50 PM   #48
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
I'm very disappointed to hear this. I loved IFM, and this makes me far less enthusiastic about reading the new trilogy.
Don't be - It's Mack, who's *always* a good read. He certainly won't have deliberately set out to "undo" anything.

No, this trilogy actually sounds pretty fucking great to me
I guess so, still disappointing though.
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Old November 3 2012, 10:45 PM   #49
Lonemagpie
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
I'm very disappointed to hear this. I loved IFM, and this makes me far less enthusiastic about reading the new trilogy.
Don't be - It's Mack, who's *always* a good read. He certainly won't have deliberately set out to "undo" anything.

No, this trilogy actually sounds pretty fucking great to me
Sounds like he undid something pretty big in the first book to me.
Geordi's rank was already undone previously. Dunno about his girlfriend, but that's more likely to be referencing Vanguard collaborator Dayton than blanking mine, if you see what I mean. That stuff happens all the time, everywhere
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Old November 3 2012, 11:01 PM   #50
Hartzilla2007
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Lonemagpie wrote: View Post

Don't be - It's Mack, who's *always* a good read. He certainly won't have deliberately set out to "undo" anything.

No, this trilogy actually sounds pretty fucking great to me
Sounds like he undid something pretty big in the first book to me.
Geordi's rank was already undone previously. Dunno about his girlfriend, but that's more likely to be referencing Vanguard collaborator Dayton than blanking mine, if you see what I mean. That stuff happens all the time, everywhere
I was talking about what happened with another character.
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Old November 4 2012, 12:37 PM   #51
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Which character?
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Old November 4 2012, 01:34 PM   #52
Hartzilla2007
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Which character?
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Old November 4 2012, 01:50 PM   #53
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Which character?
Oh, that, well that's nothing to do with IFM anyway - and as a reader I'm less bothered with that than with Janeway's return.

After all, it was seeded in the movie, the other lines did it, and there's always new iterations/models/updates...
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Old November 4 2012, 02:03 PM   #54
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Which character?
Oh, that, well that's nothing to do with IFM anyway - and as a reader I'm less bothered with that than with Janeway's return.

After all, it was seeded in the movie, the other lines did it, and there's always new iterations/models/updates...
I actually don't care if it was seeded in a bad Trek movie, I mean I wasn't happy with the last Trek movie that did this mostly because they were resetting other stuff while they were at it.
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Old November 4 2012, 06:42 PM   #55
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I actually don't care if it was seeded in a bad Trek movie
Hell, if you thought the movie was THAT bad, Data's death in that film shouldn't matter this bloody much to you.

If you ARE taking Nemesis onboard, then you can't get away from the fact that they practically bloody signposted "THIS IS HOW DATA COMES BACK!!!" in it. No half-measures.

If I see a resurrection plot flagged up in big neon lights, my only concern is "are they going to use it to tell an interesting story?". Mack did. End of.
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Old November 4 2012, 06:50 PM   #56
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

matthunter wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I actually don't care if it was seeded in a bad Trek movie
Hell, if you thought the movie was THAT bad, Data's death in that film shouldn't matter this bloody much to you.

If you ARE taking Nemesis onboard, then you can't get away from the fact that they practically bloody signposted "THIS IS HOW DATA COMES BACK!!!" in it. No half-measures.

If I see a resurrection plot flagged up in big neon lights, my only concern is "are they going to use it to tell an interesting story?". Mack did. End of.
This pretty much covers it.
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Old November 4 2012, 06:59 PM   #57
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

matthunter wrote: View Post
If you ARE taking Nemesis onboard, then you can't get away from the fact that they practically bloody signposted "THIS IS HOW DATA COMES BACK!!!" in it. No half-measures.
Actually that's a misreading of the filmmakers' intent. If anything, the story makes it extremely clear that B-4 cannot become like Data -- the attempt to download Data's memories to enable him to grow and improve is a complete failure, and Data comes to the conclusion that B-4 is simply too limited and incapable of growth, which is why he ultimately shuts B-4 down. That's actually a crucial story point, because it thematically parallels Shinzon's inability to grow and change, which is the whole thing that makes Picard (and Data) better than Shinzon (and B-4). The whole thematic unity of the movie depends on B-4 being incapable of becoming Data. The bit at the end with B-4 remembering the song is just meant to give a slight note of hope at the end, a sense that maybe Data's legacy endures in some small way.

Yes, the studio no doubt insisted that a "back door" for Data's return be included just in case the movie was so hugely successful that Brent Spiner could be talked out of his decision to retire from the role -- but that was just a contingency plan. Too many fans mistake such contingency plans for the explicit intention of the creators, but they're not. They're just a way that filmmakers hedge their bets against the unpredictable. In this case, the filmmakers' intent was clearly for Data to stay dead permanently; after all, the whole reason Spiner came up with the story is because he thought he was getting too old to play the role anymore, and he wanted to bring that part of his career to a decisive end. But the studio insisted they hedge their bets ever so slightly -- and ever since, people have been mistaking that hedge for their primary plan, which is missing the whole thematic point of B-4's presence in the story.

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Old November 12 2012, 03:59 PM   #58
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
It's not a particularly well liked book on these boards.
Really? Always looked otherwise to me - the score/poll thread has lovely scores...
By the way, when I read this I noticed that the thread wasn't included in my ranking because of a minor typo in the thread title ("Threaad" instead of "Thread"). Rosalind very kindly fixed this, and so it shows up there now.
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Old November 12 2012, 09:02 PM   #59
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Having finished reading Persistence of Memory, I'm reminded of when I read the Destiny trilogy and expressed my mild annoyance that, when Geordi listed Borg they've attempted to re-humanize, he didn't mention Reanon Bonaventure from Peter David's Vendetta. David Mack replied saying it was simply because he hadn't read Vendetta, and if he had he probably would have mentioned her. Similarly, I suspect he'd have had Geordi make some mention of Leia if he'd read IFM.
(and, FWIW, Reanon did get a mention in PAD's Before Dishonor, which I read a short while later)
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Old November 20 2012, 10:42 PM   #60
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Re: So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

According to the Chronic Rift podcast, Mack thinks IFM is simply non-canon.

http://chronicrift.com/node/2744
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