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Old November 11 2012, 05:13 PM   #31
Ian Keldon
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

sojourner wrote: View Post
Wasn't this question answered about 150 years ago?
No, the question of whether or not the US would allow states to exercise their entirely Constitutional right of secession was settled, which is a different thing entirely.

As someone noted above, and declaration of secession would be made by the state, not by a citizens' petition.

And the SCOUTS ruling is wrong on the facts. If a state wants to leave, under the Constitution as it was plainly understood prior to the 1860s, it was their decision, and the Federal Congress had no say in it.
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Old November 11 2012, 05:17 PM   #32
Ian Keldon
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

QCzar wrote: View Post
Admitted states are, truly, little more than administrative districts. States' rights fanatics hate this fact. In other words, the United States of America is a state. It's not a body or an association or a federation or a conglomerate. It's a state, a nation, a single indissoluble entity that is made up of many parts (like almost every other nation on the planet).

So when people start talking about seceding this or seceding that, it's less like a fully functioning nation wanting its "freedom back", and more like your bratty kid wanting to "secede" his room from your house. And it deserves the same response.



Do people, outside of that fail circus that is the far-right, ever take this stuff seriously?
The Founding Fathers did, as did the original states, several of which explicitly reserved the right of secession in their ratification of the Constitution.

The current state of affairs (which is what you describe above) is NOT the US that was formed in 1776. It is the "indissoluble", unitary nation that Lincoln turned it into by force of arms.
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Old November 11 2012, 05:18 PM   #33
T'Girl
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.
It might be in America's best interest if Louisiana had the ability to protect it's coast line and waterways, and patrol it's skies, right from day one. Certainly the assets in the Louisiana air national guard should be released if Louisiana goes independent. Also some small naval and coast guard vessels.

The future relationship between the US and the Louisiana State wouldn't have to be a adversarial one. Maintaining a friendly political/diplomatic relationship would be in the interest of both parties.

In terms of disenfranchised people, the people of Louisiana would change from being 1.5 % of their country's population, to being 100 % of their country's population. Their power to select their nation's leaders would be increased.

Alidar Warlock wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Let's see, Louisiana has ridiculous amount of oil and natural gas.
What gives Louisiana the right to those? Natural resources in the Gulf are currently owned by the federal government.
Not exactly, the US controls the Gulf Waters off the US coast line. The federal government doesn't control Mexican waters. And they wouldn't control the waters off of Louisiana.


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Old November 11 2012, 05:19 PM   #34
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
The people of Louisiana paid their share for the creation of the US military, in all fairness they should get their fair share of it when they leave.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.
Oh sure it does. Of course you have to fight a war over it and win it (which Confederate sympathizers seem to forget), but anything is possible.

I'd love for Louisiana to deal with another Katrina on their on. That would be epic.
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Old November 11 2012, 05:21 PM   #35
Drago-Kazov
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

I am not sure if a civil war is still possible in the US.
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Old November 11 2012, 05:28 PM   #36
T'Girl
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
I am not sure if a civil war is still possible in the US.
Getting the American people behind an attack on Louisiana? What are the odds?

President Obama getting Congressional approval (both houses) for military action

... against Louisiana?

I'm still waiting for Obama to get Congressional approval for the attack on Libya.

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Old November 11 2012, 05:32 PM   #37
E-DUB
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

Well, if Louisiana left and Puerto Rico came in, at least we wouldn't need new flags.
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Old November 11 2012, 05:36 PM   #38
T'Girl
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

Screamy wrote: View Post
I'd love for Louisiana to deal with another Katrina on their [own].
It would be similar to after the earthquake in Haiti, the aid would pour in. It actually might be better for Louisiana than after Katrina.

Many Americans would have extended family in Louisiana (I do). The relationship might be very much like with Israel, with large numbers of American supporters.

If you think about it, foreign aid from the US would be basically a given.

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Old November 11 2012, 05:41 PM   #39
Gaith
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
The Founding Fathers did, as did the original states, several of which explicitly reserved the right of secession in their ratification of the Constitution.

The current state of affairs (which is what you describe above) is NOT the US that was formed in 1776. It is the "indissoluble", unitary nation that Lincoln turned it into by force of arms.
Uh, no. Whatever language states may have written in their ratification documents became null and void as soon as they entered into the Constitutional Union, and the Constitution said nothing about secession.
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Old November 11 2012, 05:42 PM   #40
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
And the SCOUTS ruling is wrong on the facts. If a state wants to leave, under the Constitution as it was plainly understood prior to the 1860s, it was their decision, and the Federal Congress had no say in it.
It wasn't plainly understood. For starters, the idea of the states as actors who joined the constitution was alien to the founders. They deliberately bypassed the states and used ratifying conventions. They said proposing the constitution to the state legislatures would be illegitimate because it's the people of the United States who had to decide. The Constitution of the United States would be between the people and the government, not the states and the government.

In addition, the states didn't get new powers under the constitution. They only retained some of the powers they had previously and ceded others. The original 13 states clearly abolished their right to secede when they signed the Articles of Confederation, which created a "perpetual union." That's why the 10th Amendment doesn't apply.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Not exactly, the US controls the Gulf Waters off the US coast line. The federal government doesn't control Mexican waters. And they wouldn't control the waters off of Louisiana.
Why does Louisiana get to unilaterally decide its coastal waters? Those waters currently belong to the United States, not the state of Louisiana. I'm not talking about the waters inside Mexico, but that was obvious from the context of my post.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Getting the American people behind an attack on Louisiana? What are the odds?

President Obama getting Congressional approval (both houses) for military action

... against Louisiana?

I'm still waiting for Obama to get Congressional approval for the attack on Libya.
The President is explicitly authorized by statute and by the constitution to use the army to defend the US from invasions and insurrections, so Congressional authorization is unneeded. As for Libya, I'll refer you to the War Powers Act.
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Old November 11 2012, 05:49 PM   #41
SeerSGB
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

I'll never understand the mindset of people that support stuff like this: We love America, America is great...We love America so much we want to secede from the Union.
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Old November 11 2012, 05:50 PM   #42
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Screamy wrote: View Post
I'd love for Louisiana to deal with another Katrina on their [own].
It would be similar to after the earthquake in Haiti, the aid would pour in. It actually might be better for Louisiana than after Katrina.
Yes. Look how well Haiti is doing now.
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Old November 11 2012, 10:14 PM   #43
T'Girl
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

Alidar Warlock wrote: View Post
Why does Louisiana get to unilaterally decide its coastal waters?
Hmmm, because those waters would be immediately ajacent to Louisiana's physical coast line?

A 12 mile territorial limit and a 200 mile exclusive economic zone.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Getting the American people behind an attack on Louisiana?
The President is explicitly authorized by statute and by the constitution to use the army to defend the US from invasions and insurrections
There is no "violent uprising against an authority or government" here. It's all rather polite and civilized.

As for Libya, I'll refer you to the War Powers Act.
Thank you, now can you please refer President Obama to the War Powers Act?

Screamy wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
It would be similar to after the earthquake in Haiti, the aid would pour in.
Yes. Look how well Haiti is doing now.
When it came to the "aid would come pouring in" part, Haiti in that regard did quite well.

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Old November 11 2012, 10:37 PM   #44
6079SmithW
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
I'll never understand the mindset of people that support stuff like this: We love America, America is great...We love America so much we want to secede from the Union.
Their mindset is that they believe their state/s are the real America as formed by the Founding Fathers while the governments of other states and the feds are impostors and unconstitutional.
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Old November 11 2012, 10:45 PM   #45
sojourner
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Re: Louisiana petitions Obama for secession.

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
Wasn't this question answered about 150 years ago?
If a state wants to leave, under the Constitution as it was plainly understood prior to the 1860s, it was their decision, and the Federal Congress had no say in it.
Bazinga.
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