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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 8 2012, 08:12 AM   #46
T'Bonz
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Re: The Klingons

If only....
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Old November 8 2012, 03:09 PM   #47
bbailey861
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Re: The Klingons

I think it is more plausible the way it turned out. It is easier to become 'friendly' with someone you know better. The Klingons are much more above board - you know what you are getting with them so it is easier to adjust, even diplomatically, to be able to deal with them. With the Romulans, you never know what you are getting. The Romulans are the ultimate 'sneaky snakes'. It is harder to come to any common ground - and even if you do, you are always second guessing everything that happens. The Typhon Pact books are an excellent example of that.
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Old November 8 2012, 10:17 PM   #48
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Re: The Klingons

bbailey861 wrote: View Post
I think it is more plausible the way it turned out. It is easier to become 'friendly' with someone you know better. The Klingons are much more above board - you know what you are getting with them so it is easier to adjust, even diplomatically, to be able to deal with them. With the Romulans, you never know what you are getting. The Romulans are the ultimate 'sneaky snakes'. It is harder to come to any common ground - and even if you do, you are always second guessing everything that happens. The Typhon Pact books are an excellent example of that.
I don't think that is true. That is what the Romulans became because of the TNG. The Klingons and Romulans switched in all respects. Even their ships the Romulans went from BoP's to big War birds akin to D-7 cruisers and the Klingons went from big cruisers (actual D-7 cruisers) to BoB's.

The Klingons were the sneaky ones. Yes the Romulans had cloak but they used ti to straight attack border stations, to be fair they were bad guys too. It just seems they had more a Roman ethos to them. They had the pursuit of honor, all the qualities that the TNG Klingons posses. Everything they did with the Klingons, for the most part would have been more realistic with the Romulans if we consider a Roman like culture. Its more odd with the Klingons considering how they are portrayed in the TOS.

In a way the TNG suffers because it does not have a viable bad guy they end up pumping the Romulans up, which if we really think about were not considered a MAJOR power in the TOS and creating the Borg.

It even makes sense in the TMP era, as Vulcan's are "brothers" to the Romulans and would give a reason for a coming together of the two groups. Consider if they had had the for thought of this. Spock could have had a relationship with the Romulan Commander from the Enterprise incident. Saavik could have been Spock's daughter, minus the pon farr scene in STIII. The Romulans are the bad guys in STIII like they were suppose to giving Kirk a reason to hate them. Spock's relationship with Romulans would now be very personal to the point that he would open a dialog with them in STVI and it would be the Klingons trying to prevent peace.
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Old November 10 2012, 10:06 PM   #49
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Re: The Klingons

AggieJohn wrote: View Post
Even their ships the Romulans went from BoP's to big War birds akin to D-7 cruisers and the Klingons went from big cruisers (actual D-7 cruisers) to BoB's.
Romulans never had Birds of Preys, from what appear to be window on the ship in Balance of Terror, that ship isn't exactly "small." There's no indication the Romulans ever had a warship the size if the Klingon smaller BoP.

And while Klingons did add the (actual) BoP to their inventory, they kept the D7 cruiser until DS9, and they also added at some point ships larger than the D7 cruiser.

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Old November 11 2012, 07:10 PM   #50
AggieJohn
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Re: The Klingons

T'Girl wrote: View Post
AggieJohn wrote: View Post
Even their ships the Romulans went from BoP's to big War birds akin to D-7 cruisers and the Klingons went from big cruisers (actual D-7 cruisers) to BoB's.
Romulans never had Birds of Preys, from what appear to be window on the ship in Balance of Terror, that ship isn't exactly "small." There's no indication the Romulans ever had a warship the size if the Klingon smaller BoP.

And while Klingons did add the (actual) BoP to their inventory, they kept the D7 cruiser until DS9, and they also added at some point ships larger than the D7 cruiser.

What? Even Star Trek Memory Alpha refers to the Ship seen in the Balance of terror as a "bird of Prey." The ship literally has a a bird painted on the bottom. Now your right no exact numbers of crew are mentioned but the episode was based on a destroyer hunting down a submarine so its sort of suggested that the ship does not have a huge crew.
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Old November 11 2012, 11:41 PM   #51
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Re: The Klingons

AggieJohn wrote: View Post
What? Even Star Trek Memory Alpha refers to the Ship seen in the Balance of terror as a "bird of Prey."
The ship in Balance of Terror is never referred to by Romulan crew as a bird of prey. Obviously the Starfleet crew wouldn't know, it's simply the Romulan ship. Referring to the Romulan ship in that episode as a bird of prey is something the fans came up with. Memory Alpha is run by a group of fans.



The ship literally has a a bird painted on the bottom.
Elaborate "nose art." Some US military aircraft have similar paint jobs. The A10 Warthog is painted as a "Black Snake." And the F16 Flying Falcon is painted as a Native American "Thunderbird."

Now your right no exact numbers of crew are mentioned but the episode was based on a destroyer hunting down a submarine so its sort of suggested that the ship does not have a huge crew.
The episode is loosely based on the movie The Enemy Below. The submarine type in that movie had a crew of about 50. Sulu in TSFS said a Klingon BoP had a crew of a dozen.

The Klingon use the same basic configuration on some of their larger ships, but it's not clear if the Klingon (or Starfleet) refer to these as a BoP.

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Old November 12 2012, 12:54 AM   #52
Jonas Grumby
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Re: The Klingons

^ I believe the only mention of a "bird of prey" in "Balance of Terror" was this:

KIRK: "After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mister Stiles? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves."
STILES: "You'll know, sir. They're painted like a giant bird-of-prey."

That's a long way from declaring "Bird of Prey" as the ship's official class designation.

And, if memory serves, no mention of "bird of prey" at all in "The Deadly Years" or "The Enterprise Incident." Were the Romulan ships featured in any other episodes?
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Old November 12 2012, 06:00 AM   #53
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Re: The Klingons

I should say that I never really cared about the change in Klingon appearance. To me it was obviously what it was -- a change in makeup.

It wasn't an issue until Worf had to get all meta in Trials and Tribblations and explicitly acknowledge the change as something in-universe.

At that point, it was begging for an in-universe explanation.
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Old November 13 2012, 07:07 AM   #54
Anwar
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Re: The Klingons

Yeah, the whole "Bird of Prey" thing is just fanon misinterpreting Stiles' talk about the Romulans painting their ships.

It's really just "Romulan Warship".
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Old November 13 2012, 10:40 AM   #55
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Re: The Klingons

FKnight wrote: View Post
I should say that I never really cared about the change in Klingon appearance. To me it was obviously what it was -- a change in makeup.

It wasn't an issue until Worf had to get all meta in Trials and Tribblations and explicitly acknowledge the change as something in-universe.

At that point, it was begging for an in-universe explanation.
I disagree. I think it was handled BRILLIANTLY in the episode. "We do not speak of it" (exact quote escapes me at the moment). They had to acknowledged it, as it was almost painfully obvious with both Klingon versions in the same scene. But I absolutely loved how they acknowledged and side-stepped it in almost the same sentence, while leaving every fan's theory still in-play. That was where they should have left it.
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Old November 13 2012, 02:51 PM   #56
Shawnster
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Re: The Klingons

EEE wrote: View Post
FKnight wrote: View Post
I should say that I never really cared about the change in Klingon appearance. To me it was obviously what it was -- a change in makeup.

It wasn't an issue until Worf had to get all meta in Trials and Tribblations and explicitly acknowledge the change as something in-universe.

At that point, it was begging for an in-universe explanation.
I disagree. I think it was handled BRILLIANTLY in the episode. "We do not speak of it" (exact quote escapes me at the moment). They had to acknowledged it, as it was almost painfully obvious with both Klingon versions in the same scene. But I absolutely loved how they acknowledged and side-stepped it in almost the same sentence, while leaving every fan's theory still in-play. That was where they should have left it.
No, they didn't HAVE to acknowledge it. They never acknowledged the V shaped brow ridge some of the Romulans had developed in TNG. They never explained they myraid of make-up effects used on the Andorians (as mentioned above).

You like the explanation for the difference in Klingon appearance. Hey, that's great. But it wasn't necessary to explain away. Well, I take that back. I can see that with Worf being in the episode then some explanation as to why Klingon Worf looks different than the rest of the Klingons had to be given.

But they cold have left Worf out of the episode. They could have done a number of other things. They had already shown Kang, Kor and Koloth with the modern looking ridges without ever explaining their difference of appearance.

DeForrest Kelly joked that the TOS Klingons were "Northern" Klingons and the Movie Klingons were "Southern" (or vice versa). Someone else joked that the reason Klingons looked different was that our TV reception in the 60s and 70s was just poor and they always looked like that. We didn't realize until we saw TMP.

We didn't "NEED" some elaborate retcon from Enterprise to explain everything.

^ I believe the only mention of a "bird of prey" in "Balance of Terror" was this:

KIRK: "After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mister Stiles? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves."
STILES: "You'll know, sir. They're painted like a giant bird-of-prey."

That's a long way from declaring "Bird of Prey" as the ship's official class designation.

And, if memory serves, no mention of "bird of prey" at all in "The Deadly Years" or "The Enterprise Incident." Were the Romulan ships featured in any other episodes?
The argument about the Klingon/Romulan birds of prey is also muddied by the facts that:

A: Starfleet Battles referred to the Romulan Ship as a Romulan War Bird. All their ships were referred to by some avian designation. I think FASA did the same thing with their games. Apparently enough people and Fandom from the 60s and 70s and 80s felt comfortable with this that it made sense. And all from the above quoted lines from BoT.

B: The early drafts of ST:III has the BoP being of Romulan design. Hence the term BoP and the cloaking device. When the villain was changed to Klingon, the rest were likewise changed to Klingon, especially since someone remembered the Klingon/Romulan sharing noted in Enterprise Incident.

The end result being this mess we're discussing today.
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Old November 14 2012, 12:32 PM   #57
T'Girl
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Re: The Klingons

FKnight wrote: View Post
It wasn't an issue until Worf had to get all meta in Trials and Tribblations and explicitly acknowledge the change as something in-universe.
I think that an interesting way to have handled the difference during Trials And Tribblations in the appearance between Klingons in the 23rd century and Klingons in the 24th century would have been for in the beginning of the episode (in the 24th century) have Worf look the way he always does, but then when the Defiant crew is in the 23rd century Worf looks just like all the other 23rd century Klingons, and no one think this is unusual or comments on it.

Then when the Defiant return to the 24th century Worf is back to his standard appearance. Again no one on the show notices.



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Old November 14 2012, 08:18 PM   #58
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Re: The Klingons

T'Girl wrote: View Post
FKnight wrote: View Post
It wasn't an issue until Worf had to get all meta in Trials and Tribblations and explicitly acknowledge the change as something in-universe.
I think that an interesting way to have handled the difference during Trials And Tribblations in the appearance between Klingons in the 23rd century and Klingons in the 24th century would have been for in the beginning of the episode (in the 24th century) have Worf look the way he always does, but then when the Defiant crew is in the 23rd century Worf looks just like all the other 23rd century Klingons, and no one think this is unusual or comments on it.

I agree, I think that would have been a a great way to handle it.
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Old November 15 2012, 03:33 PM   #59
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Re: The Klingons

AggieJohn wrote: View Post
If Gene, god rest his soul, wanted a TOS enemy to turn into a good guy one would think that the Romulans would have been that faction since there did appear to be a noble element to them.
One, I'm not sure the name "Romulan" is as recognizable outside Trek fandom as is "Klingon," so the "message" of an enemy becoming a friend wouldn't have resonated as far with Romulans making the switch.

Two, I think there's a pretty good argument to be made that the Klingons were a "bigger" enemy than the Romulans, even if we confine ourselves to the series. Klingons appeared as adversaries in about a half dozen episodes, while Romulans appeared twice. If you throw in the movies, which were much fresher in the audience's mind when TNG hit the air, the balance tips even further in the Klingons' favor. Did a Romulan even appear on the big screen before Star Trek V? Even if one did and I'm forgetting, the Klingons loomed larger in the film series.

So, while what you're saying arguably makes more sense from a story-logic perspective, it just wouldn't have the same impact for the Romulans to make peace.

Finally, from a purely visual standpoint, a Klingon on the Enterprise bridge is more striking than a Romulan, especially after the Klingon makeup change. A Romulan on the bridge might have evoked Spock a little too much.
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Old November 16 2012, 08:25 AM   #60
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Re: The Klingons

I'd have rather the Romulans been less of two-dimensional cardboard villains and the scurvy Klingons been more villainous and less, well, Worf. I liked them TOS-era and with the modern makeup, they would have been fun as villains.
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