RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,545
Posts: 5,513,323
Members: 25,144
Currently online: 430
Newest member: ShadowL

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 10 2012, 12:18 PM   #31
Awesonne
Ensign
 
Re: VOTE today! And is the Federation a democracy?

Sci wrote: View Post
Awesonne wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

What I described isn't even about values, per se. I described an inevitable, objective scenario -- that when not made accountable to the full society in the form of a democratic mandate, any ruling class will become corrupted by power and begin oppressing the masses, who will in turn become resentful. A lack of democracy will inevitably produce class conflict.
What if the ruling class must preserve a facade of democracy? What if you have a corrupt oligarchy composed by people too smart to provoke the people by openingly oppressing it?
No such thing. Any system of unaccountable, autocratic elites will eventually see that elite class revert to corruption, incompetence, and oppression. It is the nature of power that it corrupts and seeks to ever-expand, and it is the nature of unaccountable power to produce lesser and lesser competence. It may take more time or less, but eventually that "point of non-return" will always be reached.
Personally I think that in the worst case democracy is, paraphrasing Churchill, the best form of government that has been tried so far, and would strongly prefer it over current/described oligarchies. I have, however, some objections:

1. I should have been much more clear; I'm not talking about a compact, uniform oligarchy. There is no "class war", all the de facto power, and let's say (to simplify for the love of brevity) that game theory makes unquestionably dominant the "live your rich life and watch" strategy.
2. What if democracies are also a failure on the long run? We have no notion of a democracy standing up for more than about two centuries, and we can see the american system does have some cracks (it is not to me to judge how bad they are). In this case the "point of non-return" will eventually be reached by any government. [ of course citing the Federation would be pretty circular ]

By the way keep in mind that I think, as expressed, that the Federation IS a democracy because of the way its citizen think, astonishingly and wonderfully coherent with the democratic point of view.
__________________
CONVERSATION PARADE
BMO: "What do you think about the stars in the sky?"
Finn: "They're all right, I guess."
BMO: "That is an interesting response. Battery low. Shutdown."
Awesonne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10 2012, 09:25 PM   #32
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: VOTE today! And is the Federation a democracy?

Awesonne wrote: View Post
What if democracies are also a failure on the long run? We have no notion of a democracy standing up for more than about two centuries,
I don't see how we could say that, because there were no democracies before the mid-20th century. Every so-called "democracy" that existed before then was actually just another oligarchy that excluded people on the basis of race, sex, and/or religion. The United States, for instance, was not a democracy until the passage of the Voting Rights Act in 1965.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2012, 02:23 AM   #33
Awesonne
Ensign
 
Re: VOTE today! And is the Federation a democracy?

Sci wrote: View Post
Awesonne wrote: View Post
What if democracies are also a failure on the long run? We have no notion of a democracy standing up for more than about two centuries,
I don't see how we could say that, because there were no democracies before the mid-20th century. Every so-called "democracy" that existed before then was actually just another oligarchy that excluded people on the basis of race, sex, and/or religion. The United States, for instance, was not a democracy until the passage of the Voting Rights Act in 1965.
Well, then a fortiori. We can't tell democracy will stand the trial of time by looking at history.
__________________
CONVERSATION PARADE
BMO: "What do you think about the stars in the sky?"
Finn: "They're all right, I guess."
BMO: "That is an interesting response. Battery low. Shutdown."
Awesonne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2012, 05:42 AM   #34
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: VOTE today! And is the Federation a democracy?

Awesonne wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Awesonne wrote: View Post
What if democracies are also a failure on the long run? We have no notion of a democracy standing up for more than about two centuries,
I don't see how we could say that, because there were no democracies before the mid-20th century. Every so-called "democracy" that existed before then was actually just another oligarchy that excluded people on the basis of race, sex, and/or religion. The United States, for instance, was not a democracy until the passage of the Voting Rights Act in 1965.
Well, then a fortiori. We can't tell democracy will stand the trial of time by looking at history.
I have not argued in this thread that we know with any certainty that democracy will last -- only that there is no such thing as liberty without it.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2012, 01:17 PM   #35
Awesonne
Ensign
 
Re: VOTE today! And is the Federation a democracy?

Sci wrote: View Post
Awesonne wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

I don't see how we could say that, because there were no democracies before the mid-20th century. Every so-called "democracy" that existed before then was actually just another oligarchy that excluded people on the basis of race, sex, and/or religion. The United States, for instance, was not a democracy until the passage of the Voting Rights Act in 1965.
Well, then a fortiori. We can't tell democracy will stand the trial of time by looking at history.
I have not argued in this thread that we know with any certainty that democracy will last -- only that there is no such thing as liberty without it.
I know, and lol, we actually agree, if I am not mistaken, that the Federation is a democracy. You have btw stated that other forms of government would eventually produce class conflict - then we got taken in the flow of discussion since I do not agree with some basic opinions you have about democracy.

The reason for this apparent off-topic was: I can think of a non-democratic government without oppression, but I do believe Federation is a democracy due to the way we've seen its citizens relate to its values. That is, for me we can infer UFP is a democracy by looking at its citizens' psychology.
__________________
CONVERSATION PARADE
BMO: "What do you think about the stars in the sky?"
Finn: "They're all right, I guess."
BMO: "That is an interesting response. Battery low. Shutdown."
Awesonne is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:23 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.