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 The Trek BBS Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

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November 7 2012, 04:35 AM   #136
Lieutenant Commander

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

 blssdwlf wrote: No, that is by the TNG scale. TNG Warp 9 = 833c. From "Bloodlines"DATA: I am tracing the transporter beam Bok used to send the probe. The ship is holding position approximately three hundred billion kilometres from here. PICARD: Plot a course. Maximum warp. RIKER: Even at warp nine we wouldn't get there for another twenty minutes. If it was TOS Warp speeds, they'd be home in a few months
TNG Warp 9 = 1,516.38110700484c
Go a page back and look what I posted.

The formula from Memory Alpha is from the official writers guide for TNG.

Whether or not the writers or whoever needs to proof read the treknobabble got it right is a whole different story.

November 7 2012, 04:44 AM   #137
blssdwlf
Commodore

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

 blssdwlf wrote: No, that is by the TNG scale. TNG Warp 9 = 833c. From "Bloodlines"DATA: I am tracing the transporter beam Bok used to send the probe. The ship is holding position approximately three hundred billion kilometres from here. PICARD: Plot a course. Maximum warp. RIKER: Even at warp nine we wouldn't get there for another twenty minutes. If it was TOS Warp speeds, they'd be home in a few months
TNG Warp 9 = 1,516.38110700484c
Go a page back and look what I posted.

The formula from Memory Alpha is from the official writers guide for TNG.

Whether or not the writers or whoever needs to proof read the treknobabble got it right is a whole different story.
TNG Warp 9 = 833c, as spoken in dialogue in an actual episode, "Bloodlines".

Since none of these "formulas" were ever mentioned on-screen, they don't count for much IMHO.

November 7 2012, 05:15 AM   #138
Lieutenant Commander

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

blssdwlf wrote:
 blssdwlf wrote: No, that is by the TNG scale. TNG Warp 9 = 833c. From "Bloodlines"DATA: I am tracing the transporter beam Bok used to send the probe. The ship is holding position approximately three hundred billion kilometres from here. PICARD: Plot a course. Maximum warp. RIKER: Even at warp nine we wouldn't get there for another twenty minutes. If it was TOS Warp speeds, they'd be home in a few months
TNG Warp 9 = 1,516.38110700484c
Go a page back and look what I posted.

The formula from Memory Alpha is from the official writers guide for TNG.

Whether or not the writers or whoever needs to proof read the treknobabble got it right is a whole different story.
TNG Warp 9 = 833c, as spoken in dialogue in an actual episode, "Bloodlines".

Since none of these "formulas" were ever mentioned on-screen, they don't count for much IMHO.
That's fine if you don't trust it.

I trust the writers guide more than on screen evidence since the evidence is too inconsistant.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_factor

We all know that the writers didn't have good technobabble proof readers.

So any number they spout, unless it's backed up by the writers guide source info or actual facts for things like established formula, is to be taken with a grain of salt.

November 7 2012, 05:18 AM   #139
blssdwlf
Commodore

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

 KamenRiderBlade wrote: So any number they spout, unless it's backed up by the writers guide source info or actual facts for things like established formula, is to be taken with a grain of salt.
Ah, good luck with that then...

November 7 2012, 06:13 AM   #140
blssdwlf
Commodore

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote:
 blssdwlf wrote: Which depends on how one interprets "defense" against the maneuver. Riker is looking for a way to protect the E-D against it in a non-lethal manner to the Stargazer.
That, again, is NOT what Riker asked Data. Indeed, Riker himself immediately and correctly interpreted Data's response as implying the use of lethal force, which is why Data immediately followed up with an alternative version of their defensive move. And again, it's only possible because the Enterprise is considerably more powerful than Stargazer.
We have different interpretations. Riker asked for a "defense" and Data gave him what appeared to Riker as a "lethal" counter-attack. Data clarified it as a means to use the tractor beam to stop the ship.

 newtype_alpha wrote: No it doesn't. It has the ability to detect a sudden compression of interstellar gas, not the starship that causes that compression. Again, that's required be the entire point of the scene: using NORMAL tracking techniques, there'd be no way to follow Stargazer through the maneuver. Scanning for gas compression is an abnormal technique, and it allows them to determine an "aiming point" approximately where Stargazer is going to be.
The problem is that Data said "a vessel in the Picard Maneuver might seem to disappear". He does not state the Stargazer will disappear from the sensors but it is only a possibility. Even using normal tracking techniques that could still be explained by saying the Stargazer's sudden jump to Warp 9 temporarily confusing the FTL sensors.

 newtype_alpha wrote: There's no warp burst after the turn, just more acceleration.
I stand corrected. I just looked at it and no warp burst.

 newtype_alpha wrote: But never at warp speed, and rarely without the aid of a cloaking device.
Those Kazon ships sure looked like they were hitting Voyager at point-blank while both were at warp in "Basics".

 newtype_alpha wrote: OTOH, this might be a fundamental misunderstanding of what "point blank range" actually is in Star Trek: have we ever seen them NOT exchange fire at point blank range?
I think of it as within a few starship lengths of each other. Most of TOS was not at "point blank range". And "The Wounded" had one exchange not at "point blank range". Defiant fired at a runabout from long distance also in "By Inferno's Light".

 newtype_alpha wrote: There isn't any indication for MOST of what happened in this battle. Picard, for example, never mentions yelling at his officers, never mentions the fusion reactors needing to be on surge control, never mentions what course heading he put in. In fact, he never mentions what the Ferengi "hit him" with at all; if we're to take it as literally as you seem to be, we'd have to conclude that the Ferengi RAMMED the Stargazer during its second attack. To be sure, Picard is being vague on the details because he's giving a summary, not a play-by-play. A lot more occurred than he's telling us... which is what happens when you attempt to relate a complicated situation without writing a novel in the process.
Sure, there are missing details. However, you're going well outside of what his description was trying to fit in STL sensors against an FTL ship scenario which it was not. Also, "literally", the Ferengi "fired" on the Stargazer. Your example of "ramming", again, is outside of the description of the battle as retold by Picard.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Who here even MADE that argument? I think you are confused.
You wrote that the maneuver implicitly rules out firing at the closer image which means you did not think there was a choice for the Ferengi in selecting targets.

 newtype_alpha wrote: The wrong choice doesn't seem all that relevant, it's just something Riker happens to find really amusing. Data even says, later, that there is no known counter to the Picard Maneuver, which implicitly rules out "just fire at the closer image." The logical conclusion is that the maneuver works the way it does because theoretically you don't have time to fire on EITHER image before your attacker cripples you, in which case it was the Ferengi's last spiteful shot -- as their ship was exploding around them -- that was aimed at the wrong target.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Doesn't matter either. Starfleet was apparently sufficiently impressed that it now gets a mention in their textbooks. Seems to be a standard tactic now, since the grinning Riker says "You did it first." A counter attack, IF it existed, would have been mentioned as a type of defense. Season One Data is not known for omitting information.
It does matter. If it took Data a few seconds to come up with a defense then it's pretty obvious that the maneuver hadn't been used alot or they'd have a counter on the books.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Again, IF that were possible, Data would have immediately mentioned it only to have Riker make him narrow down the choice of possible moves, e.g. "Too risky. Is there any way to do that without murdering our own captain?"
Again, IF Riker asked for a "counter" then Data would have offered this up as an option. However, Riker asked for a "defense".

 newtype_alpha wrote: More to the point: why would you fire on BOTH targets if you have the capacity to target the closer one in the first place? If you COULD target the closer one under normal circumstances, there'd be nothing special about the Picard Maneuver: Riker asks "What is the defense against the Picard Maneuver" and Data answers "Target the closer image as soon as it appears."
If Riker asks "What is the defense against the Picard Maneuver", Data will answer, "There is no known DEFENSE. But I have some counter-offense options."

As to why BOTH targets? Why not, "just to be sure". We saw how easy it is to confuse the sensors in "Peak Performance".

 newtype_alpha wrote: This isn't rocket science, dude. Either standard sensors can track the Stargazer or they can't. If they can, then there's no reason for them to scan for a compression wave: just scan for that fast-moving starship hurtling towards you at warp speed. In this case, they DID scan for the compression wave, ergo they COULD NOT scan for the Stargazer until it dropped out of warp. That also implies that if you wait for Stargazer to stop, you've waited too long: it doesn't matter which target you shoot at, because Stargazer will hit you first.
First, the question really is, can standard sensors

Since the Picard Maneuver's components include a Warp 9 jump to work then we cannot rule out FTL sensors since Warp 2 would work equally well against LS/STL sensors. We can stipulate that the standard FTL sensors do have a problem with high warp targets.

BTW, in Picard's story, the Ferengi attacked the Stargazer while she was flying through the star system at Warp 2. That would mean that the STL Ferengi, tracked Stargazer and either fired at her while she was passing by at FTL or the Ferengi jumped out of hiding and went FTL to attack the Stargazer. FTL sensors.

As to the non-standard detection of compressed gases, it was animated in real-time on the main viewer so if they could not track the gas disturbance in real-time certainly the Stargazer would disappear, NO warp streaks animated, then appear in a different spot on the viewer. That did not happen.

The second question is, does Stargazer really have the initiative to shoot first? And the answer is NO. Simply because the Ferengi chose the wrong target to fire at and did fire its weapons.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Which, again, he only specifies AFTER Data provides him with an action that implicitly requires blowing stargazer to bits.
Riker assumed Data got the wrong message and tried to clarify with a question. Data, OTOH, did correctly interpret it as a "defense".

RIKER: And use it as an aiming point and blow our Captain to bits?
DATA: This class starship has enough power to use our tractor beam on it. Seize it, limit it's field of fire.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Already covered that: this is relatively easy to do for a starship moving AWAY from you, since the blurry afterimage it leaves points out the direction like a con-trail in space. If you're in a starship, you can follow that trail until you're close enough to work out your target's exact position; and since at that point you're BOTH moving at the same speed, normal sensors can give you a firing solution.
That doesn't make sense. A ship at FTL heading towards a STL ship with LS sensors would be invisible to the STL ship the entire time it is in FTL. Heading away at FTL, OTOH, isn't part of the maneuver and doesn't come into play.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Your problem is with #2. If the Ferengi -- or anyone else, for that matter -- actually had the ability to engage both targets, they wouldn't be stupid enough to shoot at the farther one, even if by some fluke of logic they assumed that the new target was a completely different ship. Any commander in any fleet worth half his weight in tribble feed would immediately shift his focus to the closer target, either to evade it or to destroy it.
Did you forget that it was the first voyage as a captain for the only son of Daimon Bok?

 newtype_alpha wrote: Your #2 point implies the Picard Maneuver employs misdirection to gain an advantage. IT DOESN'T. Even if you know what Picard is about to do, you can't counteract the move unless your sensors have been specially configured to work out Stargazer's exact position the moment it drops out of warp. So if the Ferengi weren't scanning for the gas compression, they'd have no way to target the newly-arrived Stargazer before it opened fire.
According to the dialogue, the target would see both ships and they'd have a choice to fire on either one or both. It is part of the description of the maneuver.
RIKER: And blowing into maximum warp speed, you appeared for an instant to be in two places at once.
PICARD: And our attacker fired on the wrong one.
 newtype_alpha wrote: And as the icing on the cake, with Stargazer's phasers and torpedoes tearing them apart, it was apparently all they could do just to pick whatever target they had a fix on and return fire. It just so happened that the last target they had a solution for was Stargazer's old position.
Or it was the inexperience of the young Ferengi captain that targeted the wrong image which allowed the Stargazer to blast his ship to bits.

 newtype_alpha wrote: It is HIGHLY unlikely the Ferengi had time to fire first. More importantly, Picard's account of the battle leaves room for interpretation, since he doesn't even mention it until AFTER he describes the maneuver, and doesn't think it worthy of comment in his flashbacks either.
If the Ferengi had time to fire after they were hit, they would have targeted the ship that was actually shooting at them. The Stargazer would have been destroyed.

newtype_alpha wrote:
 That would be the case for any military wanting an advantage to surprise their opponents. Why the Federation in TNG's time opted not to do that is more likely a political issue, not a technical one since "Pegasus" clearly shows that the Federation could create superior cloaking tech but are legally bound not to.
It's questionable whether the phase cloak device actually WAS superior. Even the Romulans eventually abandoned that effort.
Seriously?

newtype_alpha wrote:
 It would appear that Bok meant for Picard to be destroyed by the Enterprise-D.
Nope. While tweeking the memory devices Bok is heard maniacally smirking to himself "You will injure yourself, Picard, as you once injured me." A theme that he echoes six years later, when sitting in Picard's waiting room: "I demand you repay me for my loss. You can repay me with your son's life."
The "you will injure yourself" happens in the middle of the episode, just as Bok is ramping up his device. His parting words, are to "Die Well."

His second diabolical revenge plan is to make Picard weep for the death of his fake son.

As to the first plan, what would happen if Picard successfully destroyed the E-D? What was Bok's endgame there? The Ferengi mind control devices were still there. Picard would be proven innocent. Unless Bok kept Picard on the attack until Federation ships caught up to him and destroyed the Stargazer? I think Bok never meant for the Stargazer to open fire on it's attack on the E-D and let it be destroyed. Picard had time to order weapons fire when he was held by tractor beam but his "playback loop" wasn't in sync with the actual battle. It would've been closure as if his son had picked the correct target years ago. IMHO.

Last edited by blssdwlf; November 7 2012 at 02:34 PM.

November 7 2012, 07:37 PM   #141
Timo

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

Random point:

 Although looking a second time, it seems that this "9.975" speed is quoted from an alien species (2371) and Neelix but haven't found one from an actual crew member...
The two quotes for warp 9.975 are from "Caretaker" and "Relativity" - both by Starfleet personnel (helm officer Stadi and CO Janeway, respectively), and both before the ship set sail for her very first operational mission.

In the first episode, the expression used is "stable" or "sustainable" (the delivery is a bit unclear, even if the script intent is for the second expression) "cruise velocity"; in the second, "top cruising speed".

I can't recall where the Species 8472 or Neelix would have referred to the warp 9.975 capability.

Timo Saloniemi

 November 8 2012, 02:38 AM #142 blssdwlf Commodore Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device Thanks Timo. So basically the dialogue from Starfleet crewmembers for Warp 9.975 is before Voayager was knocked into the Delta quadrant and started taking damage. I mixed up the "Relativity" episode From "Barge of the Dead": NEELIX: Fifteen decks. Computers augmented with bio-neural circuitry. Top cruising speed, warp nine point nine seven five, not that you'll be going anywhere.
November 8 2012, 04:42 PM   #143
Crazy Eddie

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

blssdwlf wrote:
newtype_alpha wrote:
 blssdwlf wrote: Voyager is actually inline with TNG speeds. At Warp 9 traveling 70,000 LY it would take 84 years to get home assuming a non-stop flight.
That's the TOS scale. By the putative TNG scale, Warp 9 would be a bit over 1500 times the speed of light (46 year transit time).
No, that is by the TNG scale. TNG Warp 9 = 833c.
Not by the scale quoted in backstage sources. I'm aware that "Bloodlines" is inconsistent with it, though.

 Although looking a second time, it seems that this "9.975" speed is quoted from an alien species (2371) and Neelix but haven't found one from an actual crew member...
Stadi in the pilot episode and Janeway in one of the timetravel episodes.
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November 8 2012, 05:03 PM   #144
Timo

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

 Not by the scale quoted in backstage sources. I'm aware that "Bloodlines" is inconsistent with it, though.
"Bloodlines" is our only real datapoint on warp 9. The problem with it is not that it would be inconsistent with some backstage musings that never were in any way involved in the defining of warp speeds (all references to warp factors are inconsistent with all backstage scales, save for two datapoints glimpsed on an Okudagram in ENT "First Flight" that happen to match the supposed TOS cubic scale), but that it suggests such a low speed compared to the known ability of TNG era starships to go from star system to star system within hours but without "risking" high warp factors.

Timo Saloniemi

November 8 2012, 05:34 PM   #145
Crazy Eddie

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

 blssdwlf wrote: We have different interpretations. Riker asked for a "defense" and Data gave him what appeared to Riker as a "lethal" counter-attack.
And if they had been on any ship other than a Galaxy class, it WOULD have been a lethal counter-attack.

 Even using normal tracking techniques that could still be explained by saying the Stargazer's sudden jump to Warp 9 temporarily confusing the FTL sensors.
In which case even the FTL sensors would not be able to follow Stargazer's movements. Thus, there is no longer any reason to assume they ARE scanning at FTL, since they would work just as well if they weren't.

 Also, "literally", the Ferengi "fired" on the Stargazer.
Yes, we know that. We can infer that from Picard's description of the battle. Just like we can infer that Stargazer went from a standing start to warp nine and then stopped again, catching the Ferengi off guard.

 You wrote that the maneuver implicitly rules out firing at the closer image which means you did not think there was a choice for the Ferengi in selecting targets.
Right. And remember that the REASON the Ferengi didn't have a choice is because Stargazer fired first. IOW, the Ferengi could not have fired their weapons at EITHER target before the Stargazer dealt them a lethal blow. That they ultimately selected the more distant one in the confusion of their unfolding ass-kicking is probably the only reason Picard is still alive.

 It does matter. If it took Data a few seconds to come up with a defense then it's pretty obvious that the maneuver hadn't been used alot or they'd have a counter on the books.
Significantly, the maneuver had never been used against Data before, thus nobody had managed to think up a countermeasure.

OTOH, it's possible a defense DID exist, but wasn't in Starfleet's tactical database and therefore wasn't accessible to Data -- at least, not off the top of his positronic head. If he'd had half an hour to query Starfleet command and log into the database at the nearest Starbase, he might have found a few wargame scenarios or tactical studies with some possibilities.

 Again, IF Riker asked for a "counter" then Data would have offered this up as an option. However, Riker asked for a "defense".
That's a distinction without a difference, especially since "target the closer image" would have been just as valid for aiming a tractor beam as it would for a phaser beam. There isn't much to dispute the obvious implication that "target the closer image" is NOT possible, not even in a purely defensive move.

 As to why BOTH targets? Why not, "just to be sure". We saw how easy it is to confuse the sensors in "Peak Performance".
Because the closer target would be the more immediate threat, and immobilizing it first gives you time to deal with the second one.

Besides, that assumes starships are capable of shooting at two different targets separated by hundreds of thousands of kilometers. THAT prospect is definitely without precedent in Trek canon.

 First, the question really is, can standard sensors 1. Track the Stargazer after a sudden jump to Warp 9 2. Track the Stargazer after a sudden jump to Warp 1 Since the Picard Maneuver's components include a Warp 9 jump to work then we cannot rule out FTL sensors since Warp 2 would work equally well against LS/STL sensors.
Not at the distances involved; at low warp it would take too long to complete the maneuver and your opponent would engage his engines in his return arc, only to arrive there and discover you've moved. You wind up in a tail chase, and in Picard's case the Ferengi had him at a distadvantage.

At high warp you complete the maneuver in about four seconds and catch him before he can engage you.

If the two ships were separated by a smaller distance, lower warp factors would be adequate... but at those same short distances, a jump to warp nine would mean overshooting your target fifty times over in the time it takes to say "reverse power!"

 We can stipulate that the standard FTL sensors do have a problem with high warp targets.
And thus we have no reason to assume they are FTL at all, since their performance is no better.

 BTW, in Picard's story, the Ferengi attacked the Stargazer while she was flying through the star system at Warp 2. That would mean that the STL Ferengi, tracked Stargazer and either fired at her while she was passing by at FTL or the Ferengi jumped out of hiding and went FTL to attack the Stargazer. FTL sensors.
Covered this already. Assuming Stargazer WAS at warp two when the Ferengi fired -- which is still not definite -- the Ferengi need only have intercepted and matched speeds with Stargazer to engage it.

And I've explained three times now that you can easily track a ship moving faster than light using STL sensors IF you let it pass you first, which the Ferengi evidently did.

 As to the non-standard detection of compressed gases, it was animated in real-time on the main viewer so if they could not track the gas disturbance in real-time certainly the Stargazer would disappear, NO warp streaks animated, then appear in a different spot on the viewer.
The warp streaks are only visible on the viewer for about three quarters of a second. Stargazer's warp jump takes three to four seconds. Thus what the sensors are "animating in real time" is the deceleration phase -- stargazer slowing to impulse -- not the warp jump.

Which is more or less the same thing WE usually see in Trek, when we see that flash of light and the streaky image of a starship dropping out of warp (or, alternately, the warp flash and a starship jumping TO warp). The acceleration/deceleration phase is visible to STL sensors, but the actual FTL movement is not: Stargazer will arrive at Enterprise before the telltales do.

 The second question is, does Stargazer really have the initiative to shoot first?
Yes. Picard's "reverse and stop" is followed immediately by the order to fire with everything he had. He had already taken a sensor bearing on the Ferengi ship and fed a targeting solution ahead of time.

 Simply because the Ferengi chose the wrong target to fire at and did fire its weapons.
But did the Ferengi fire BEFORE Stargazer did? If you believe they did, what evidence do you have for that?

 That doesn't make sense. A ship at FTL heading towards a STL ship with LS sensors would be invisible to the STL ship the entire time it is in FTL. Heading away at FTL, OTOH, isn't part of the maneuver and doesn't come into play.
You asked how the Ferengi could have tracked and intercepted the Stargazer if they had gone to warp and passed it during the hypothetical (very low warp) version of the Picard Maneuver. You said that tracking the warp-driven stargazer implies FTL sensors.

I said it does not, essentially because having PASSED Stargazer they would have flown through its light cone and gotten a fix on its new location and adjusted course to intercept it. Checkmate for Stargazer.

The Picard maneuver requires a high warp jump because of the need to close quickly before your enemy has a chance to do anything else. In doing so, you seize the initiative.

 Did you forget that it was the first voyage as a captain for the only son of Daimon Bok?
Didn't forget. It's just not relevant, unless Bok Junior was at the weapons console, which I kind of doubt.

 According to the dialogue, the target would see both ships and they'd have a choice to fire on either one or both.
Again: is that before or AFTER Stargazer had pounded them with the Picard Maneuver? Because this part of the description takes place immediately after "I stopped right off the enemy's bow and fired with everything I had."

 If the Ferengi had time to fire after they were hit, they would have targeted the ship that was actually shooting at them.
How about I set your weapons console on fire and punch a ten-foot hole in the bridge and see whether or not YOU select the right target?

 Seriously?
Well I don't imagine the Romulans kept playing with it after "The Next Phase." Seems pretty clear THEY couldn't get it to work either.

 The "you will injure yourself" happens in the middle of the episode, just as Bok is ramping up his device. His parting words, are to "Die Well."
What did you expect him to say"Live unwell" doesn't have the same menace to it.

 His second diabolical revenge plan is to make Picard weep for the death of his fake son.
His plan from the beginning was to make Picard weep for the death of SOMEONE. He's a Ferengi, not a Klingon: he demands equal payment, not merely vengeance.

 As to the first plan, what would happen if Picard successfully destroyed the E-D? What was Bok's endgame there? The Ferengi mind control devices were still there. Picard would be proven innocent.
But still would have to live with having murdered his entire crew along with their families.

Besides, it's unlikely Bok would have left the device sitting on the bridge for Starfleet to discover (it cost him a fortune, after all). Probably would have waited for the fireworks to stop, beamed aboard and taken it back and left Picard to wail in anguish on the ghost of his former command.
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November 9 2012, 08:50 AM   #146
blssdwlf
Commodore

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote:
 blssdwlf wrote: We have different interpretations. Riker asked for a "defense" and Data gave him what appeared to Riker as a "lethal" counter-attack.
And if they had been on any ship other than a Galaxy class, it WOULD have been a lethal counter-attack.
But it was not any other ship... although a Nebula class and/or Defiant class might be able to do it. Or even the Excelsior and Ambassadors...

newtype_alpha wrote:
 Even using normal tracking techniques that could still be explained by saying the Stargazer's sudden jump to Warp 9 temporarily confusing the FTL sensors.
In which case even the FTL sensors would not be able to follow Stargazer's movements. Thus, there is no longer any reason to assume they ARE scanning at FTL, since they would work just as well if they weren't.
From "Peak Performance" we know the E-D continued to scan for incoming FTL ships (picked up the Ferengi) so there is no reason to assume that FTL scanners would be off or not in use. Since the Ferengi ship was detectable as it approached it would stand to reason that the sudden Warp 9 speed is part of what makes the maneuver unique and confuses the FTL sensors.

From "Peak Performance"
BURKE: Captain, sensors picking up a Ferengi warship closing at warp five.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Yes, we know that. We can infer that from Picard's description of the battle. Just like we can infer that Stargazer went from a standing start to warp nine and then stopped again, catching the Ferengi off guard.
You're inferring when you don't need to. Picard actually says that they were "fired on".

What we do not know is what speed the Stargazer was when she initiated her Warp 9 jump. Did you hear any acceleration sound from Picard's flashback? I heard a deceleration but not the acceleration. You can make a guess about his starting speed but there is nothing to draw an inference from. For all we know, the Stargazer stayed at Warp 2 up till she jumped to Warp 9...

 newtype_alpha wrote: Right. And remember that the REASON the Ferengi didn't have a choice is because Stargazer fired first. IOW, the Ferengi could not have fired their weapons at EITHER target before the Stargazer dealt them a lethal blow. That they ultimately selected the more distant one in the confusion of their unfolding ass-kicking is probably the only reason Picard is still alive.
The simplest answers are that they fired approximately at the same time or the Ferengi fired first.

1. If Stargazer fired first, there would be no response since the Ferengi would've been destroyed.
2. If the Ferengi fired first it was after seeing both targets and selecting the ghost image.
3. If both fired at the same time, the Ferengi still selected the wrong target and the Stargazer's weapons destroyed the Ferengi.
4. If the Ferengi fired last, after being fired at by the Stargazer it would've selected and fired at the point-blank range target resulting in the Stargazer's destruction.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Significantly, the maneuver had never been used against Data before, thus nobody had managed to think up a countermeasure.
Or not against that many enemies at all.

 newtype_alpha wrote: That's a distinction without a difference, especially since "target the closer image" would have been just as valid for aiming a tractor beam as it would for a phaser beam. There isn't much to dispute the obvious implication that "target the closer image" is NOT possible, not even in a purely defensive move.
Would it have been? The tractor beams may need some additional sensor information to be used where phasers can be fired at point-blank without such requirements. Data's plan focused on the use of the tractor beam, not phasers, of the E-D.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Because the closer target would be the more immediate threat, and immobilizing it first gives you time to deal with the second one.
Unless you're unsure which one is the true target, then firing on both works just as well.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Besides, that assumes starships are capable of shooting at two different targets separated by hundreds of thousands of kilometers. THAT prospect is definitely without precedent in Trek canon.
Fired at the same time or just moments apart?

The Enterprise in "Balance of Terror" had no problem switching from long-range fire to point-blank to detonate a space mine.

The non-starship Deep Space Nine fired simultaneously at both distant and point-blank Klingon targets in "The Way of the Warrior".

 newtype_alpha wrote: Not at the distances involved; at low warp it would take too long to complete the maneuver and your opponent would engage his engines in his return arc, only to arrive there and discover you've moved. You wind up in a tail chase, and in Picard's case the Ferengi had him at a distadvantage.
The question is at what distances and what starting speeds?
5 seconds at TNG Warp 9 is about 8 AU traveled. However, if both ships were at low warp already like Warp 2 then the extra seconds might just be to close a few thousand kilometers distance to point-blank range. It could go either way.

Picard describes the Ferengi coming back for the kill so it was not stationary. It would have been moving at a fairly decent Warp speed as well to close the distance for the final attack.
PICARD: I improvised. With the enemy vessel coming in for the kill, I ordered a sensor bearing, and when it went into the return arc
 newtype_alpha wrote: At high warp you complete the maneuver in about four seconds and catch him before he can engage you. If the two ships were separated by a smaller distance, lower warp factors would be adequate... but at those same short distances, a jump to warp nine would mean overshooting your target fifty times over in the time it takes to say "reverse power!"
Or if both ships were moving relative to each other they could still be at short distances and still require high Warp speeds to rapidly close the distance.

Even thinking from the Ferengi ship, how fast were they going in order to make the attack passes on the Stargazer? Long enough for Picard to order the fusion generator back up and running...

 newtype_alpha wrote: And thus we have no reason to assume they are FTL at all, since their performance is no better.
Or more accurately, the FTL sensors don't perform as well against a Warp 9 target.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Covered this already. Assuming Stargazer WAS at warp two when the Ferengi fired -- which is still not definite -- the Ferengi need only have intercepted and matched speeds with Stargazer to engage it. And I've explained three times now that you can easily track a ship moving faster than light using STL sensors IF you let it pass you first, which the Ferengi evidently did.
There are alot of things that must be FTL for Picard's story to work. FTL Sensors to track and target the Stargazer. FTL weapons to fire at the Stargazer. Having STL sensors doesn't give you any real-time ranging information for a firing solution. Nope, FTL sensors.

 newtype_alpha wrote: The warp streaks are only visible on the viewer for about three quarters of a second. Stargazer's warp jump takes three to four seconds. Thus what the sensors are "animating in real time" is the deceleration phase -- stargazer slowing to impulse -- not the warp jump.
Let's not confuse Picard's memories of a 5 second hop to the later battle between the Stargazer and the E-D. In the latter battle, from the moment the Stargazer's warp engines flashed, warp streaked and appeared as a 2nd target was a TOTAL of 1.25 seconds. As the 2nd image, she was now at impulse when she was caught. This was all in real-time, not some delay or Riker's orders would've been totally off.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Which is more or less the same thing WE usually see in Trek, when we see that flash of light and the streaky image of a starship dropping out of warp (or, alternately, the warp flash and a starship jumping TO warp). The acceleration/deceleration phase is visible to STL sensors, but the actual FTL movement is not: Stargazer will arrive at Enterprise before the telltales do.
What episodes do we see the streaky image of a starship as she drops out of warp? I'm familiar with it when she is at warp speed.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Yes. Picard's "reverse and stop" is followed immediately by the order to fire with everything he had. He had already taken a sensor bearing on the Ferengi ship and fed a targeting solution ahead of time.
I doubt it. In his playback:

1. he gets a sensor bearing.
2. Orders a phaser lock.
3, Then sets a heading before engaging warp engines.

There was no way they could have had a firing solution ahead of time since the weapons crew didn't know where Picard would stop the ship. This means that the Stargazer kept her phaser lock in real-time all the way to the delivery point at Warp 9 or re-acquired the target as she slowed down from Warp 9.
PICARD: Sensor beam bearing on hostile ship!
VOICE [OC] Seven mark nineteen, sir!
VOICE [OC]: Phasers, sir? Sir?
PICARD: Ready phasers, and lock! Stand by on warp nine. Heading seven, seven mark twenty. Engage.
PICARD: Steady. Now, reverse and stop! Phasers fire, torpedoes away! Fire. Fire.
 newtype_alpha wrote: But did the Ferengi fire BEFORE Stargazer did? If you believe they did, what evidence do you have for that?
I believe that the Stargazer did not fire first. It does not preclude a simultaneous exchange or the Ferengi fired first and picked the wrong target.

1. The Stargazer "could not take another hit". If the Ferengi was hit first and was able to return fire, they would've shot at the ship that just fired at it.
2. If the Stargazer fired first, the Ferengi ship would've been destroyed, leaving no ship to fire at the ghost image of the Stargazer.
3. That leaves either a simultaneous exchange or the Ferengi firing first with the Stargazer second.

 newtype_alpha wrote: You asked how the Ferengi could have tracked and intercepted the Stargazer if they had gone to warp and passed it during the hypothetical (very low warp) version of the Picard Maneuver. You said that tracking the warp-driven stargazer implies FTL sensors. I said it does not, essentially because having PASSED Stargazer they would have flown through its light cone and gotten a fix on its new location and adjusted course to intercept it. Checkmate for Stargazer.
If all you're doing is following a trail of light with only LS sensors you still don't have any true idea of range to target or how far ahead they are before you overrun them. The Ferengi would be "overdriving their sensors" so to speak. No, it'd still have to be an FTL sensor in play for the attack to work.

 newtype_alpha wrote: The Picard maneuver requires a high warp jump because of the need to close quickly before your enemy has a chance to do anything else. In doing so, you seize the initiative.
As the dialogue points out, you're really presenting two targets to the enemy ship. The enemy still has a chance to open fire. You just want them to pick the wrong target.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Didn't forget. It's just not relevant, unless Bok Junior was at the weapons console, which I kind of doubt.
Captain of the ship tells the weapons folks who to target and use what weapons. Very relevant.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Again: is that before or AFTER Stargazer had pounded them with the Picard Maneuver? Because this part of the description takes place immediately after "I stopped right off the enemy's bow and fired with everything I had."
Picard described his actions. Riker described the Ferengi's perspective and Picard closed it with how the Ferengi reacted when confronted with two Stargazers.
PICARD: Well, I did what any good helmsman would have done. I dropped into high warp, stopped right off the enemy vessel's bow and fired with everything I had.
RIKER: And blowing into maximum warp speed, you appeared for an instant to be in two places at once.
PICARD: And our attacker fired on the wrong one.
As I've pointed out, if the Ferengi responded after they were hit, then it would've targeted the actual Stargazer and the results would've been fatal. It only leaves either a simultaneous exchange or the Ferengi firing first.

 newtype_alpha wrote: How about I set your weapons console on fire and punch a ten-foot hole in the bridge and see whether or not YOU select the right target?
If there was a ten-foot hole in the bridge there would be NO RESPONSE from the ship. You pretty much explained why the Ferengi would not have fired second.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Well I don't imagine the Romulans kept playing with it after "The Next Phase." Seems pretty clear THEY couldn't get it to work either.
But they were interested enough to attempt to recover the Pegasus in "The Pegasus". They might've been stalled by technical issues but they still appeared to be interested in the technology to go send a Warbird to recover a "destroyed" Federation ship.

 newtype_alpha wrote: What did you expect him to say"Live unwell" doesn't have the same menace to it.
Or "Suffer my pain"

newtype_alpha wrote:
 His second diabolical revenge plan is to make Picard weep for the death of his fake son.
His plan from the beginning was to make Picard weep for the death of SOMEONE. He's a Ferengi, not a Klingon: he demands equal payment, not merely vengeance.
The first time, it would've been a reverse-Picard Maneuver. The target blows the Stargazer up.

The second time was more obvious that he spelled out that he wanted Picard to suffer, but not die well :P

newtype_alpha wrote:
 As to the first plan, what would happen if Picard successfully destroyed the E-D? What was Bok's endgame there? The Ferengi mind control devices were still there. Picard would be proven innocent.
But still would have to live with having murdered his entire crew along with their families.
Picard already suffers that from his stint with the Borg. He still serves as Captain of the Enterprise. He seems to have recovered by "First Contact"

Back to the Picard Maneuver. Picard's version of the story works in the televised TNG framework with little need for additional "inferences" from a technical standpoint. All it does is establish that the FTL sensors have difficulty with a sudden Warp 9 burst. You add far more complication and additional assumptions if you force a LS sensor vs FTL ship scenario, IMHO.

November 9 2012, 05:19 PM   #147
Crazy Eddie

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

 blssdwlf wrote: From "Peak Performance" we know the E-D continued to scan for incoming FTL ships (picked up the Ferengi)...
Six seconds before they fired on them. It's considerably more likely that the Ferengi ship was detected as it began to drop out of warp, locked its weapons and fired.

 You're inferring when you don't need to. Picard actually says that they were "fired on".
Not the second time, he doesn't.

 What we do not know is what speed the Stargazer was when she initiated her Warp 9 jump. Did you hear any acceleration sound from Picard's flashback?
Yep. There's the distinct "warp pulse" FX the moment Picard orders "engage!"

 If the Ferengi fired last, after being fired at by the Stargazer it would've selected and fired at the point-blank range target resulting in the Stargazer's destruction.
Assuming it had any way of acquiring the new target with its sensors knocked out pandemonium unfolding on its rapidly decompressing bridge.

If there's one constant in the entire Trek universe it's that an exploding starship doesn't die instantly, or for that matter even quickly. If you cause enough damage to trigger a warp core breach, you can almost gaurantee there will be just enough time for the crew and/or chief engineer to make some sort of dramatic announcement to the effect before the thing finally goes boom.

 Would it have been? The tractor beams may need some additional sensor information
And they may need less. A comparison scenario using phasers was never presented.

 Unless you're unsure which one is the true target, then firing on both works just as well.
What is there to be unsure about? Unless you're fighting someone with a history of deploying highly advanced long-range holographic decoys, the closer image is obviously a hostile ship; you may not be sure if it's the same ship you've been fighting for the last twenty minutes, but it's still the more immediate threat.

 Fired at the same time or just moments apart?
Simultaneously. Which is to say, a phaser lock on two targets at once, one very close and one very far. We got to see DS9 do this, but being a space station with a VASTLY different weapon system configuration, this doesn't tell us much.

 The question is at what distances and what starting speeds? 5 seconds at TNG Warp 9 is about 8 AU traveled. However, if both ships were at low warp already like Warp 2 then the extra seconds might just be to close a few thousand kilometers distance to point-blank range. It could go either way.
That's another distinction without a difference; even at warp 2, the difference in speed between warp 2 and warp 9 is so huge that the starting distances would be exactly the same.

More importantly, Picard's final line is "reverse and stop!" and earlier he describes it to Data and Riker that he STOPPED right off the enemy's bow. Both of which imply he's performing the maneuver against a slow-moving or stationary target.

 Picard describes the Ferengi coming back for the kill so it was not stationary.
But not neccesarily moving at warp speed either. Turning back around at impulse power would suffice for that.

 Even thinking from the Ferengi ship, how fast were they going in order to make the attack passes on the Stargazer? Long enough for Picard to order the fusion generator back up and running...
Which means the Ferengi repeatedly warped in and attacked ferociously, then quickly moved off before Stargazer could return fire, then warped in and attacked again, then moved off again and reset a second time (I actually used to use this trick in "Star Trek: Legacy." It's a sneaky way for smaller ships to pick on more powerful ones without getting carved up by their heavier phaser armament).

Picard's sensors would have told him the Ferengi were coming around again, getting ready to setup another dive-in-and-attack move. He used their own trick against them, and the timing worked out just perfectly.

 Or more accurately, the FTL sensors don't perform as well against a Warp 9 target.
Accurate enough the first time, thank you.

 There are alot of things that must be FTL for Picard's story to work. FTL Sensors to track and target the Stargazer....
Covered already. STL sensors are sufficient for this.

 FTL weapons to fire at the Stargazer.
Also covered. STL weapons also suffice for this, even if you assume both ships are at warp, since exchanging fire at all would require precisely matching their relative velocities.

 Having STL sensors doesn't give you any real-time ranging information for a firing solution.
Which is exactly why the Ferengi missed.

 Let's not confuse Picard's memories of a 5 second hop to the later battle between the Stargazer and the E-D.
There's no confusion. At the distances in which the maneuver would be performed it took several seconds to cover that distance. Bok had Stargazer move into that same position in order to replicate the circumstances of the original maneuver. Again, the entire thing is being carefully staged to create a specific sort of illusion not just for Picard, but for Starfleet as well (Bok may have screwed up the forged log entry, but the intent there is obvious).

So what Enterprise saw would have been exactly what the Ferengi saw. More to the point: do you really believe the Ferengi would have been confused by a maneuver during which the other ship dissolves into a set of approaching warp streaks for almost five seconds?

 In the latter battle, from the moment the Stargazer's warp engines flashed, warp streaked and appeared as a 2nd target was a TOTAL of 1.25 seconds. As the 2nd image, she was now at impulse when she was caught. This was all in real-time, not some delay or Riker's orders would've been totally off.
That's the thing about the time delay: what you see and what actually happens are not the same thing. By the time Enterprise SEES the warp streaks appear, Stargazer has already been at warp for three seconds.

 What episodes do we see the streaky image of a starship as she drops out of warp?
Seriously?

Voyager drops out of warp.

Voyager goes to warp.

Bird of prey.... goes to warp

Another bird of prey... goes to warp

A space station goes to warp... don't have a cap for it, but the dropout looks about the same.

The Coalition fleet drops out of warp.... And the Romulan fleeship goes TO warp

The effect changes a bit from era to era (or season to season) but it's the same basic effect that was first exemplified in TMP.

 I doubt it. In his playback: 1. he gets a sensor bearing. 2. Orders a phaser lock. 3, Then sets a heading before engaging warp engines. There was no way they could have had a firing solution...
That's what exactly a "phaser lock" is.

 I believe that the Stargazer did not fire first. It does not preclude a simultaneous exchange or the Ferengi fired first and picked the wrong target.
Again, I doubt it. If simultaneous exchange, it means the Ferengi didn't notice Stargazer's new position at all -- maybe their weapons officer sneezed -- and Picard simply dodged their fire. I think it more likely that Stargazer riddled the Ferengi with phasers and torpedoes and the doomed vessel fired a parting shot as a dying gasp; since they didn't manage to get a phaser lock on Stargazer's new position, they wound up firing on the wrong target.

Actually, take the second video I linked to as precedent. You've just been hit by six photon torpdoes and a dozen isotons of phaser blasts. The bridge is on fire, half your crew is sprawled out on the deck and your warp core is making all kinds of scary noises. In the midst of all this, your weapons officer crawls back to his console bleeding from his ears, reaches up and taps the "fire" button.

What target did he just fire on?

 1. The Stargazer "could not take another hit". If the Ferengi was hit first and was able to return fire, they would've shot at the ship that just fired at it.
See above.

 If all you're doing is following a trail of light with only LS sensors you still don't have any true idea of range to target or how far ahead they are before you overrun them.
That is, until you match velocities, at which time you're reduced to standard lightspeed delay. Close the distance a little more and even that becomes immaterial.

 As the dialogue points out, you're really presenting two targets to the enemy ship. The enemy still has a chance to open fire. You just want them to pick the wrong target.
You don't WANT them to pick either target. You WANT them to explode before they have a chance to do even that much. If you can get them to pick the wrong target, that's a bit of good luck... but it's a silly thing to depend on in a universe populated by people OTHER than incompetent Ferengi.

 If there was a ten-foot hole in the bridge there would be NO RESPONSE from the ship.
Are you sure?

 Or "Suffer my pain"
Eh... not dramatic enough.

 Picard already suffers that from his stint with the Borg. He still serves as Captain of the Enterprise. He seems to have recovered by "First Contact"
Were you watching the same "First Contact" that I was? He didn't seem recovered at all.

But recovery or not, KILLING Picard wasn't Bok's plan.

 Back to the Picard Maneuver. Picard's version of the story works in the televised TNG framework with little need for additional "inferences" from a technical standpoint. All it does is establish that the FTL sensors have difficulty with a sudden Warp 9 burst...
Or that starships cannot use them to track their opponents in real time. You keep ruling out that possibility without supporting its elimination.
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November 10 2012, 12:33 AM   #148
blssdwlf
Commodore

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote:
 blssdwlf wrote: From "Peak Performance" we know the E-D continued to scan for incoming FTL ships (picked up the Ferengi)...
Six seconds before they fired on them. It's considerably more likely that the Ferengi ship was detected as it began to drop out of warp, locked its weapons and fired.
The dialogue clearly points out in "Peak Performance" that the E-D's sensors are tracking an incoming Ferengi warship at Warp 5 and not that it had just dropped out of warp.

From "Peak Performance"
BURKE: Captain, sensors picking up a Ferengi warship closing at warp five.

From the time the warning chirps announced the approaching Warp 5 Ferengi till the first hit landed is 13 seconds.

If the Ferengi were coming in at Warp 9 which is quite a bit faster then the warning time would be even less, down to a few seconds. Now imagine if the Ferengi wasn't approaching from a distance but started much closer at Warp 9. The sensors probably wouldn't be able to warn them in time before the Ferengi opened fire.

newtype_alpha wrote:
 You're inferring when you don't need to. Picard actually says that they were "fired on".
Not the second time, he doesn't.
Just checking then as you didn't specify.

So, the first attack we know he was fired upon. No inference necessary.

The second attack, it isn't specific enough so you'd have to infer that they were fired upon again.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Yep. There's the distinct "warp pulse" FX the moment Picard orders "engage!"
There are random explosions and noises occurring on the bridge. I couldn't say that I heard a "warp pulse" when he orders "Engage". I don't even think in TNG there is a warp pulse/boom audible on the bridge. The distinct warp powering down could be heard when he says "Reverse and stop".

 newtype_alpha wrote: Assuming it had any way of acquiring the new target with its sensors knocked out pandemonium unfolding on its rapidly decompressing bridge.
Since you point to the "Nemesis" example then we can tell a bridge can recover and still fight effectively even with a hole in the bridge. You've weakened your argument here.

 newtype_alpha wrote: If there's one constant in the entire Trek universe it's that an exploding starship doesn't die instantly, or for that matter even quickly. If you cause enough damage to trigger a warp core breach, you can almost gaurantee there will be just enough time for the crew and/or chief engineer to make some sort of dramatic announcement to the effect before the thing finally goes boom.
Yes, on dramatic announcement before immediately exploding.

No, dying last weapons fire on the wrong target after it is considered destroyed. Unless you have an example of this?

 newtype_alpha wrote: And they may need less. A comparison scenario using phasers was never presented.
Or they may need more since we were only dealing with their tractor beam.

 newtype_alpha wrote: What is there to be unsure about? Unless you're fighting someone with a history of deploying highly advanced long-range holographic decoys, the closer image is obviously a hostile ship; you may not be sure if it's the same ship you've been fighting for the last twenty minutes, but it's still the more immediate threat.
You asked about why fire at both targets (as a counter). If for example in "Peak Performance" the E-D fired at both the Stargazer and the trick Warbird the ruse would've been over.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Simultaneously. Which is to say, a phaser lock on two targets at once, one very close and one very far. We got to see DS9 do this, but being a space station with a VASTLY different weapon system configuration, this doesn't tell us much.
It tells us that fire control systems can fire at near and far targets.

As to starships, simultaneously locking onto multiple ships and firing on them at the same time, I'm not aware of any instances where they had done this except for in "Conundrum" at close-range.

 newtype_alpha wrote: That's another distinction without a difference; even at warp 2, the difference in speed between warp 2 and warp 9 is so huge that the starting distances would be exactly the same.
That's assuming they both were going the same direction. With both ships closing on each other, the distance could be greater. If the Ferengi ship was heading out at Warp 5 as it was turning around to attack the distance would be closer. Again, we don't know enough about their position and speeds to be sure. (Other than Warp 2 was the starting speed of the battle and Warp 9 was involved at the end.)

 newtype_alpha wrote: More importantly, Picard's final line is "reverse and stop!" and earlier he describes it to Data and Riker that he STOPPED right off the enemy's bow. Both of which imply he's performing the maneuver against a slow-moving or stationary target.
Fair enough. Then it looks like Ferengi moved away after the 2nd attack and although appearing that they were coming back for the kill according to dialogue the Ferengi at that moment was only facing them but not moving much.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Which means the Ferengi repeatedly warped in and attacked ferociously, then quickly moved off before Stargazer could return fire, then warped in and attacked again, then moved off again and reset a second time Picard's sensors would have told him the Ferengi were coming around again, getting ready to setup another dive-in-and-attack move. He used their own trick against them, and the timing worked out just perfectly.
Wow, that is inline with the description of the battle. Although given how much time it took between requesting a sensor bearing and receiving the pulse factored in with traveling at Warp 9 for 5-6 seconds the sensors must've been FTL. If they were LS-only the sensor pulse would've taken what, an hour to come back?

 newtype_alpha wrote: Accurate enough the first time, thank you.
Hardly. Warp 9 is the key. Not just simple FTL.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Covered already. STL sensors are sufficient for this.
Covered this also. I guess we'll just have to disagree. STL sensors wouldn't work when the Ferengi attacked the Stargazer at Warp 2.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Also covered. STL weapons also suffice for this, even if you assume both ships are at warp, since exchanging fire at all would require precisely matching their relative velocities.
Let's see. Both ships are FTL. Stargazer is ahead at Warp 2. Ferengi is following Stargazer's light trail but only has LS sensors. It has no idea what is in front of that light trail. It can't tell that it has overrun Stargazer until it either crashed into it or overshot it. How does it obtain a firing solution? It can't. How does it get its STL weapons on target to Stargazer? Not from a chasing position. What if they moved in front of the Stargazer and let it run into it's weapons. Sure, but they only have LS sensors so they're back to square one about not knowing exactly where Stargazer was since in front, no light trail to follow.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Which is exactly why the Ferengi missed.
And why the Ferengi missed when they attacked the Stargazer in the first attack. Oh wait, that's not true because they did hit the Stargazer. FTL Sensors

 newtype_alpha wrote: There's no confusion. At the distances in which the maneuver would be performed it took several seconds to cover that distance. Bok had Stargazer move into that same position in order to replicate the circumstances of the original maneuver. Again, the entire thing is being carefully staged to create a specific sort of illusion not just for Picard, but for Starfleet as well (Bok may have screwed up the forged log entry, but the intent there is obvious).
If it were the same position the flight time of the Stargazer would've been 5 seconds instead of 1.5 seconds. If he was trying to replicate the circumstances, Picard's orders at the time Riker interrupts him would've been "Phasers fire!" not "Ready phasers" which occurs before Picard calls "Engage".

 newtype_alpha wrote: So what Enterprise saw would have been exactly what the Ferengi saw. More to the point: do you really believe the Ferengi would have been confused by a maneuver during which the other ship dissolves into a set of approaching warp streaks for almost five seconds?
What the Ferengi would've seen was another ship magically appearing out of no where without any of the warp light streaks. As to being confused, again, inexperienced Captain. How many times have we seen Captains freeze up during a surprise attack and watch their ship get blown out from underneath them? Alot more than we should.

 newtype_alpha wrote: That's the thing about the time delay: what you see and what actually happens are not the same thing. By the time Enterprise SEES the warp streaks appear, Stargazer has already been at warp for three seconds.
Again, that doesn't make sense. If it were truly an issue of FTL ship vs LS sensors:

1. Stargazer would immediately appear,
2. followed by the warp streaks catching up
3. and then the warp engine flash kicking into Warp 9 and the old image disappearing.

Instead, we see the reverse or "correct" order of:
1. Warp engine flash
2. streaks
3. Appearance of 2nd Stargazer
4. Both images visible simultaneously

Being in order does not suggest LS or STL sensors but real-time FTL sensors with a weakness against sudden Warp 9 hops.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Seriously? Voyager drops out of warp.
That looks and sounds like the ship "streak" was still at warp and the sudden "appearance" is when it hit STL. Do ships "streak" at STL since you're suggesting that "The acceleration/deceleration phase is visible to STL sensors" while they are still STL. (italics mine).

 newtype_alpha wrote: Voyager goes to warp. Bird of prey.... goes to warp Another bird of prey... goes to warp A space station goes to warp... don't have a cap for it, but the dropout looks about the same. The Coalition fleet drops out of warp.... And the Romulan fleeship goes TO warp The effect changes a bit from era to era (or season to season) but it's the same basic effect that was first exemplified in TMP.
As to jumping to warp, those warp streaks/light trails (when visible) indicate the ship is at warp.

http://youtu.be/G-1kkB_qF28

There would be no way in your premise for the STL sensors to see a ship while she's at warp so in order for the main viewer to animate the warp trails before showing Stargazer in it's new position it would've been with FTL sensors.

 newtype_alpha wrote: That's what exactly a "phaser lock" is.
You said, "Fed a targeting solution ahead of time." That isn't possible in the sequence given. My description of a phaser lock is for real-time targeting.

And here's a look at how the E-D has the option to either let the targeting re-acquire or float on it's own as conditions change or the weapons officer simply re-acquiring a lock after the change.

From "Lower Decks"
RIKER: Lock phasers on target.
SITO: Phasers locked.
DATA: The enemy is firing.
RIKER: Helm, hard to starboard.
LAVELLE: Hard to starboard.
RIKER: Fire phasers.
(a pause as she finds the right buttons)
SITO: Firing.
DATA: Target is destroyed.
RIKER: End simulation sequence. Secure from drill. Alpha shift, your response time was seven percent slower than the gamma shift.
All departments, submit drill evaluation reports
...
RIKER: What happened back there, Ensign?
SITO: I'm sorry, sir. When we changed course I had to re-lock phasers before I could fire.
RIKER: Next time, try letting the locking relay float until the actual order to fire is given. They may not teach that trick at the Academy, but it works.
 newtype_alpha wrote: Again, I doubt it. If simultaneous exchange, it means the Ferengi didn't notice Stargazer's new position at all -- maybe their weapons officer sneezed -- and Picard simply dodged their fire. I think it more likely that Stargazer riddled the Ferengi with phasers and torpedoes and the doomed vessel fired a parting shot as a dying gasp; since they didn't manage to get a phaser lock on Stargazer's new position, they wound up firing on the wrong target.
That's a possibility but unlikely. I just prefer Riker's dialogue that they simply fired on the wrong target.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Actually, take the second video I linked to as precedent. You've just been hit by six photon torpdoes and a dozen isotons of phaser blasts. The bridge is on fire, half your crew is sprawled out on the deck and your warp core is making all kinds of scary noises. In the midst of all this, your weapons officer crawls back to his console bleeding from his ears, reaches up and taps the "fire" button.
Why would he do that without the Captain telling him to? And if he was told to fire he'd lock onto the ship that actually fired at him instead of the more distant ship which by now would've likely disappeared

 newtype_alpha wrote: What target did he just fire on?
None as the Ferengi ship would've exploded by now. If he did get a shot off miraculously surviving the salvo from Stargazer he would've locked onto the one that fired at them.

 newtype_alpha wrote: See above.
See above.

 newtype_alpha wrote: That is, until you match velocities, at which time you're reduced to standard lightspeed delay. Close the distance a little more and even that becomes immaterial.
How do you match velocities? You're following a light trail and you have no idea what is in front of you or the light trail. How do you even navigate at FTL with only LS sensors?

 newtype_alpha wrote: You don't WANT them to pick either target. You WANT them to explode before they have a chance to do even that much. If you can get them to pick the wrong target, that's a bit of good luck... but it's a silly thing to depend on in a universe populated by people OTHER than incompetent Ferengi.
It was a desperate move on Picard's part. Since this maneuver doesn't seem to be used a whole lot, there might be a reason for that

 newtype_alpha wrote: Are you sure?
Are you sure you want to use that example? Unless you want to use your example to prove that the Ferengi would have no problem targeting the correct opponent since in "Nemesis" the E-E with the big hole continued to target and fight.

newtype_alpha wrote:
Eh... not dramatic enough.

 Picard already suffers that from his stint with the Borg. He still serves as Captain of the Enterprise. He seems to have recovered by "First Contact"
Were you watching the same "First Contact" that I was? He didn't seem recovered at all.
Yeah, he had a HUGE grudge against the Borg. I'd imagine he wouldn't like the Ferengi either. But, he managed to stay an effective Captain from "BOBW" to "First Contact".

 newtype_alpha wrote: But recovery or not, KILLING Picard wasn't Bok's plan.
Killing him easily, apparently not. But getting Starfleet to do it...

newtype_alpha wrote:
 Back to the Picard Maneuver. Picard's version of the story works in the televised TNG framework with little need for additional "inferences" from a technical standpoint. All it does is establish that the FTL sensors have difficulty with a sudden Warp 9 burst...
Or that starships cannot use them to track their opponents in real time. You keep ruling out that possibility without supporting its elimination.
I rule out that possibility because there are enough episodes in TNG that have a sublight E-D detecting an incoming Warp speed ship which indicate FTL sensors. Heck there are also episodes where a ship (or ships) being chased KNOW that they are being chased by other ships at Warp and if they were limited to LS/STL sensors that would be impossible.

November 10 2012, 05:23 AM   #149
Crazy Eddie

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

 blssdwlf wrote: The dialogue clearly points out in "Peak Performance" that the E-D's sensors are tracking an incoming Ferengi warship at Warp 5 and not that it had just dropped out of warp.
Then when, exactly, did the Ferengi ship drop out of warp?

 There are random explosions and noises occurring on the bridge. I couldn't say that I heard a "warp pulse" when he orders "Engage".
I hear it pretty clearly. And I've always found it funny, ever since I was a little kid, because it always inevitably leads me to wonder about the whole "no sound in space" thing and to realize that the sound effects we hear in the external shots can't possibly really exist, but then again neither does the background music either, so it's all just stage decoration anyway and therefore what Picard is "hearing" is his own visualization of what's happening outside the ship.

 Since you point to the "Nemesis" example then we can tell a bridge can recover and still fight effectively even with a hole in the bridge.
Yes, assuming the ship the bridge is attached to is still in something resembling fighting shape by the time those officers have had time to recover. In this case, they did not: a handful of seconds after Stargazer opened fire, the Ferengi ship was an expanding debris cloud.

 Yes, on dramatic announcement before immediately exploding.
"Immediately" is relatively rare. It took the Saratoga a full two minutes to blow its warp core, and the first Defiant took slightly longer after the Breen zapped it with the energy dampener. The Valiant was shot to pieces by a Jem'hadar battleship, but still managed to avoid exploding until Jake and Nog could escape.

And even the relatively quick destruction of the Odyssey shows a distinct time delay between the collision and the actual explosion of the ship... time enough for one final poorly-aimed phaser blast.

 No, dying last weapons fire on the wrong target after it is considered destroyed. Unless you have an example of this?
Not the WRONG target, but Lursa and Be'tor managed to trigger a warp core breach before the Enterprise destroyed them with a photon torpedo. If they had done slightly more damage to the engineering section, Enterprise might have exploded only a few seconds after launching that torpedo.

 Or they may need more since we were only dealing with their tractor beam.
Or they may need less. Again, we don't know one way or the other; it's a moot point.

 You asked about why fire at both targets (as a counter). If for example in "Peak Performance" the E-D fired at both the Stargazer and the trick Warbird the ruse would've been over.
The ruse was over instantly: Burke immediately realized the warbird was a fake, and Picard figured it out seconds later when Hathaway ignored the warbird and opened fire on them.

 It tells us that fire control systems can fire at near and far targets.
It tells us that DS9's fire control system can do this. That doesn't help us much, since DS9 can do MANY things a normal starship cannot do (like simultaneously manage twelve different torpedo launchers and rotary phaser launchers, simultaneously targeting entire formations of ships). And DS9 is a large stationary platform with ALOT of sensor coverage and a potentially huge number of independent sensor/tracking/targeting stations. Each individual weapons emplacement could easily be managed by a single starship class fire control center.

 Fair enough. Then it looks like Ferengi moved away after the 2nd attack and although appearing that they were coming back for the kill according to dialogue the Ferengi at that moment was only facing them but not moving much.
Yeah. Probably getting another sensor bearing to line up their next run.

 Wow, that is inline with the description of the battle. Although given how much time it took between requesting a sensor bearing and receiving the pulse factored in with traveling at Warp 9 for 5-6 seconds the sensors must've been FTL. If they were LS-only the sensor pulse would've taken what, an hour to come back?
Unless they were using passive sensors: either reading the emissions from the Ferengi ship itself, or reading the emissions from the Ferengi's sensor beam. There's still the fact that we're not entirely sure how fast warp 9 actually is inside of a solar system; if it's the TVH warp 9 or the "Bloodlines" warp 9 or something in between (or worse, the Elaan of Troyus warp 9 which may or may not even be an FTL velocity).

 Covered this also. I guess we'll just have to disagree. STL sensors wouldn't work when the Ferengi attacked the Stargazer at Warp 2.
Yes they would if both ships were traveling at the same speed.

 Let's see. Both ships are FTL. Stargazer is ahead at Warp 2. Ferengi is following Stargazer's light trail but only has LS sensors. It has no idea what is in front of that light trail. It can't tell that it has overrun Stargazer until it either crashed into it or overshot it.
Incorrect. You can clearly see the END of the trail ahead of you, though you cannot as clearly see the actual object leaving that trail (as the distance and relative velocity decrease, that quickly changes, though). Working out the other ship's course and speed is simple arithmetic; working out its exact location with enough accuracy to get a firing solution is potentially more complicated, but aided by the fact that once you get a rough estimate of where he is and how fast he's going, you can place yourself in new relative position, match his velocity, and then get his EXACT position using standard sensors.

It wouldn't be a totally simple maneuver, in fact it's probably a basic combat maneuver that any good helmsman probably spends a lot of time practicing. Covered in the academy under "basic pursuit tactics."

 How does it get its STL weapons on target to Stargazer? Not from a chasing position.
Actually, ONLY from a chasing position. Once you're behind them you can match their warp factor and then you're both stationary in the same co-moving reference frame

 If it were the same position the flight time of the Stargazer would've been 5 seconds instead of 1.5 seconds.
It likely WAS 5 seconds. I repeat: what WE saw on the viewer is obviously different from what actually occurred (given the distant image of Stargazer can't really be there). The one and a half seconds of deceleration we see would only be the ending portion of the Stargazer's flight, not the entire maneuver.

 What the Ferengi would've seen was another ship magically appearing out of no where without any of the warp light streaks.
But there WOULD be the warp streaks, as there ALWAYS are whenever a starship drops out of warp. They may not have understood what they were seeing and been momentarily confused, or -- far more likely -- they didn't have more than half a second to react before Stargazer's fussilade smashed through their shields.

 Again, that doesn't make sense. If it were truly an issue of FTL ship vs LS sensors: 1. Stargazer would immediately appear, 2. followed by the warp streaks catching up 3. and then the warp engine flash kicking into Warp 9 and the old image disappearing.
In almost ANY case, the warp flash at the old image doesn't make logical sense. If the putative FTL sensors detected the warp flash, they would have known instantly that Stargazer was coming at them; more importantly, they would have been able to work out Stargazer's final position without having to scan for a sudden compression of interstellar gas (you ca scan for barely-detectable trace gases but you can't scan for a 200,000 ton slab of metal speeding towards you?).

 Being in order does not suggest LS or STL sensors but real-time FTL sensors with a weakness against sudden Warp 9 hops.
Actually it suggests NEITHER of those things, given the still-present need to scan for a sudden gas compression.

 That looks and sounds like the ship "streak" was still at warp...
It wasn't. Simple math fails that test: it takes Voyager a non-zero number of frames to cover that distance even as a streak, which means it's considerably below FTL velocity in that scene (unless, of course, ILM's cinematography is working at FTL too).

 Do ships "streak" at STL since you're suggesting that "The acceleration/deceleration phase is visible to STL sensors" while they are still STL. (italics mine).
Yes. That's the sudden acceleration of the warp engines that pushes them through STL velocity through the warp barrier. In almost all cases, the "jump to warp" effect occurs BEFORE the flash in the distance as the ship breaks the light barrier (FX artists have used this since TMP; it's meant to be analogous to a sonic boom).

 As to jumping to warp, those warp streaks/light trails (when visible) indicate the ship is at warp.
See above. The flash means lightspeed; the streaks occur first, with the onset of "warp 1" and above occurring at the flash.

 There would be no way in your premise for the STL sensors to see a ship while she's at warp...
Then what are WE seeing? ILM's cameras are FTL too?

 You said, "Fed a targeting solution ahead of time." That isn't possible in the sequence given. My description of a phaser lock is for real-time targeting.
Then your description is wrong, since Picard acquired the phaser lock BEFORE he went to warp. Something like this is implied in what Riker tells Sito Jaxa during a "The Lower Decks": "Let the locking relay float until the actual order to fire is given." That way she won't have to reestablish a phaser lock when the ship changes course (and, presumably, position). Vigo probably did the same thing on Stargazer and was therefore able to get a realtime fix the instant they were back at sublight velocity.

 That's a possibility but unlikely. I just prefer Riker's dialogue that they simply fired on the wrong target.
There's nothing to indicate it's unlikely, especially since that's Picard's dialog, not Riker's.

 Why would he do that without the Captain telling him to?
Why did Tom put Voyager to warp when the alien bioship had knocked them into a spin?

 And if he was told to fire he'd lock onto the ship that actually fired at him instead of the more distant ship which by now would've likely disappeared
And I'm sure Tom would have programmed an actual escape course into his helm console instead of just crawling up to it and pressing the "engage" button.

 None as the Ferengi ship would've exploded by now.
It will, in about three seconds. The question stands: there's a flash of light and suddenly your ship is hit by a massive barrage of phaser fire. Your stunned weapons officer stabs a button. What target did he just fire at?

 How do you match velocities? You're following a light trail and you have no idea what is in front of you or the light trail.
You can see the light trail and you can see where it ends. You just close on that position and dial down your velocity until the light trail stops being a trail and resolves itself into a ship (because that's all the light trail actually is: the elongated distorted image of the ship you're following).

 Are you sure you want to use that example? Unless you want to use your example to prove that the Ferengi would have no problem targeting the correct opponent since in "Nemesis"...
... IF Picard gave them half a minute to catch their breath and recover from the shock of having their bridge decompressed (as Shinzon did). It's pretty clear he did NOT do this, and so the example works just fine.

 Yeah, he had a HUGE grudge against the Borg. I'd imagine he wouldn't like the Ferengi either. But, he managed to stay an effective Captain from "BOBW" to "First Contact".
Arguably, Bok managed to stay pretty effective in the nine years since the death of his son. That's the equivalency you're missing: Bok isn't trying to murder Picard, just hurt him in the same way HE was hurt.

 I rule out that possibility because there are enough episodes in TNG that have a sublight E-D detecting an incoming Warp speed ship which indicate FTL sensors. Heck there are also episodes where a ship (or ships) being chased KNOW that they are being chased by other ships at Warp and if they were limited to LS/STL sensors that would be impossible.
Here's a math problem for you: if you're moving through space at warp nine, and you're being chased by another ship at warp nine, what is the relative velocity between your two ships?
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November 10 2012, 05:00 PM   #150
blssdwlf
Commodore

Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote:
 blssdwlf wrote: The dialogue clearly points out in "Peak Performance" that the E-D's sensors are tracking an incoming Ferengi warship at Warp 5 and not that it had just dropped out of warp.
Then when, exactly, did the Ferengi ship drop out of warp?
As you'd say, it doesn't matter since he was warning Picard of the approaching Warp 5 ship and not that it had dropped out of Warp and is about to fire on them.

newtype_alpha wrote:
 There are random explosions and noises occurring on the bridge. I couldn't say that I heard a "warp pulse" when he orders "Engage".
I hear it pretty clearly. And I've always found it funny, ever since I was a little kid, because it always inevitably leads me to wonder about the whole "no sound in space" thing and to realize that the sound effects we hear in the external shots can't possibly really exist, but then again neither does the background music either, so it's all just stage decoration anyway and therefore what Picard is "hearing" is his own visualization of what's happening outside the ship.
The background noise matched the random fire, pops and explosions occurring on the bridge. None of if matched a warp acceleration, IMO.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Yes, assuming the ship the bridge is attached to is still in something resembling fighting shape by the time those officers have had time to recover. In this case, they did not: a handful of seconds after Stargazer opened fire, the Ferengi ship was an expanding debris cloud.
If they had enough time to open fire they would've picked the target that just fired on them.

 newtype_alpha wrote: "Immediately" is relatively rare. It took the Saratoga a full two minutes to blow its warp core, and the first Defiant took slightly longer after the Breen zapped it with the energy dampener. The Valiant was shot to pieces by a Jem'hadar battleship, but still managed to avoid exploding until Jake and Nog could escape. And even the relatively quick destruction of the Odyssey shows a distinct time delay between the collision and the actual explosion of the ship... time enough for one final poorly-aimed phaser blast.
Or more likely enough time for one final aimed phaser blast at point-blank range. If people have time to run to an escape pod, they can push an extra button to aim their phasers.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Not the WRONG target, but Lursa and Be'tor managed to trigger a warp core breach before the Enterprise destroyed them with a photon torpedo. If they had done slightly more damage to the engineering section, Enterprise might have exploded only a few seconds after launching that torpedo.
But still, not at the WRONG target

 newtype_alpha wrote: Or they may need less. Again, we don't know one way or the other; it's a moot point.
It's part of Data's plan to use the tractor beam (not phasers) against the Stargazer. Important for the plan then not moot at all.

 newtype_alpha wrote: The ruse was over instantly: Burke immediately realized the warbird was a fake, and Picard figured it out seconds later when Hathaway ignored the warbird and opened fire on them.
The ruse was effective enough to allow the Hathaway to score hits on the Enterprise-D. If the E-D fired at both targets, the Hathaway wouldn't had opportunity for the free hits it landed.

 newtype_alpha wrote: It tells us that DS9's fire control system can do this. That doesn't help us much, since DS9 can do MANY things a normal starship cannot do (like simultaneously manage twelve different torpedo launchers and rotary phaser launchers, simultaneously targeting entire formations of ships). And DS9 is a large stationary platform with ALOT of sensor coverage and a potentially huge number of independent sensor/tracking/targeting stations. Each individual weapons emplacement could easily be managed by a single starship class fire control center.
If the E-D can target multiple drones at the same time in "Conundrum" and Voyager can fire at 3 targets simultaneously then it is entirely possible to fire at both targets, near and far.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Unless they were using passive sensors: either reading the emissions from the Ferengi ship itself, or reading the emissions from the Ferengi's sensor beam. There's still the fact that we're not entirely sure how fast warp 9 actually is inside of a solar system; if it's the TVH warp 9 or the "Bloodlines" warp 9 or something in between (or worse, the Elaan of Troyus warp 9 which may or may not even be an FTL velocity).
As far as TNG goes, they've been pretty consistent on data points to have warp the same speed regardless where they were unless there was something grabbing them. If it was TOS Warp 9 near a star, it could be as slow as 5c which is about 33s for light to travel one way from Ferengi to Stargazer so 1 minute for a active pulse and 30 seconds for only passive data. Still way too long for Picard's sensor bearing request as he got it almost instantly.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Yes they would if both ships were traveling at the same speed.
And I covered how that wouldn't be possible with LS sensors. No way for a ship with LS sensors to match speeds.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Incorrect. You can clearly see the END of the trail ahead of you, though you cannot as clearly see the actual object leaving that trail (as the distance and relative velocity decrease, that quickly changes, though).
Whoa there. Yes you can see the end but at FTL you won't have a clue as to where it goes until you actually run into it. With LS sensors and traveling at FTL you already are overdriving your sensors.

For an experiment, in an open area with very loud music or noise, put a blindfold on and wear sound-blocking earplugs and have a friend stand in front of you with a small battery powered fan. Have friend move around the room while aiming the fan at you while you try and catch them. Even though you can feel the air from the fan, you can't tell how far away it is. And if they stay perfectly still as you walk up to it, you won't know how far until you accidentally run into your friend (or touch it with your hand if you're feeling around.)

 newtype_alpha wrote: Actually, ONLY from a chasing position. Once you're behind them you can match their warp factor and then you're both stationary in the same co-moving reference frame
You mean once you collide with them with your LS sensors.

 newtype_alpha wrote: It likely WAS 5 seconds. I repeat: what WE saw on the viewer is obviously different from what actually occurred (given the distant image of Stargazer can't really be there). The one and a half seconds of deceleration we see would only be the ending portion of the Stargazer's flight, not the entire maneuver.
But as shown, it was not and we're not given any evidence otherwise. If it was delayed by 4 seconds, Riker's orders would've been too late and the Stargazer would've fired by then.

 newtype_alpha wrote: But there WOULD be the warp streaks, as there ALWAYS are whenever a starship drops out of warp. They may not have understood what they were seeing and been momentarily confused, or -- far more likely -- they didn't have more than half a second to react before Stargazer's fussilade smashed through their shields.
Which points to not LS sensors in order to see those warp streaks.

 newtype_alpha wrote: In almost ANY case, the warp flash at the old image doesn't make logical sense. If the putative FTL sensors detected the warp flash, they would have known instantly that Stargazer was coming at them; more importantly, they would have been able to work out Stargazer's final position without having to scan for a sudden compression of interstellar gas (you ca scan for barely-detectable trace gases but you can't scan for a 200,000 ton slab of metal speeding towards you?).
When you get down to it, the detected warp flash doesn't make sense with LS or FTL sensors. However, it is there so we have to work with it. LS sensors is not the answer because of the timing issues. There isn't any reason to not have FTL sensors either since it is vital to the responsive sensor bearing Picard orders and we know they're always scanning for incoming Warp speed ships.

The remaining possibility is that a sudden Warp 9 jump at the target ship confuses the sensors into thinking there are two for just a brief moment.

As to scanning with trace gases to lock on tractor beams, so be it.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Actually it suggests NEITHER of those things, given the still-present need to scan for a sudden gas compression.
For locking on tractor beams. Data's plan did not include phasers or other weapons.

 newtype_alpha wrote: It wasn't. Simple math fails that test: it takes Voyager a non-zero number of frames to cover that distance even as a streak, which means it's considerably below FTL velocity in that scene (unless, of course, ILM's cinematography is working at FTL too).
We're frequently shown ships warping by at FTL so yes, the cinematography is working at FTL and occasionally, so is the camera It'd be boring or useless if the camera were LS-only

 newtype_alpha wrote: Yes. That's the sudden acceleration of the warp engines that pushes them through STL velocity through the warp barrier. In almost all cases, the "jump to warp" effect occurs BEFORE the flash in the distance as the ship breaks the light barrier (FX artists have used this since TMP; it's meant to be analogous to a sonic boom).
Warp streaks exist to indicate they are at warp, even while still at warp. Just because they have a warp streak doesn't mean they are accelerating in or out of warp. In the screenshot you can see as the Enterprise-A approaches the camera at warp speed (the stars are zipping by) she also is leaving a light trail.

 newtype_alpha wrote: See above. The flash means lightspeed; the streaks occur first, with the onset of "warp 1" and above occurring at the flash. Then what are WE seeing? ILM's cameras are FTL too?
See above for both. A ship at warp can have a light streak and ILM's camera are FTL

 newtype_alpha wrote: Then your description is wrong, since Picard acquired the phaser lock BEFORE he went to warp.
Quoting myself: "This means that the Stargazer kept her phaser lock in real-time all the way to the delivery point at Warp 9 or re-acquired the target as she slowed down from Warp 9."

This is inline with "The Lower Decks".

The way you described it: "He had already taken a sensor bearing on the Ferengi ship and fed a targeting solution ahead of time."

That lock-on prior to the sudden Warp 9 move would've broken the lock. You don't mention a need to re-acquire the target as "Lower Decks" indicates.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Something like this is implied in what Riker tells Sito Jaxa during a "The Lower Decks": "Let the locking relay float until the actual order to fire is given." That way she won't have to reestablish a phaser lock when the ship changes course (and, presumably, position). Vigo probably did the same thing on Stargazer and was therefore able to get a realtime fix the instant they were back at sublight velocity.
That isn't present in your first description that I responded to.

 newtype_alpha wrote: There's nothing to indicate it's unlikely, especially since that's Picard's dialog, not Riker's.
Which neither one disputes their interpretations. The only likely things that happened as supported by the dialogue is that the Ferengi saw both ships and fired at the wrong target.

 newtype_alpha wrote: Why did Tom put Voyager to warp when the alien bioship had knocked them into a spin?
Why didn't Tuvok fire phasers? We've seen many times the brave helmsman or some other guy run up to the helm to get the ship "out of there". But when have we seen someone firing weapons without authorization to save the ship?

 newtype_alpha wrote: It will, in about three seconds. The question stands: there's a flash of light and suddenly your ship is hit by a massive barrage of phaser fire. Your stunned weapons officer stabs a button. What target did he just fire at?
If they were trained like "The Lower Decks", they would've waited for the Captain to select the target and give the fire order. The Captain, if he had any experience, would've chosen the ship that just fired on it, as in "return fire!".

 newtype_alpha wrote: You can see the light trail and you can see where it ends.
That's just being silly. You have LS sensors and you're traveling FTL chasing an FTL ship. You cannot see "where it ends".

 newtype_alpha wrote: You just close on that position and dial down your velocity until the light trail stops being a trail and resolves itself into a ship (because that's all the light trail actually is: the elongated distorted image of the ship you're following).
More like collide with the ship you're chasing. Again, you're flying so fast that you can't see what is in front of your nose, only the the light hitting your bow.

 newtype_alpha wrote: ... IF Picard gave them half a minute to catch their breath and recover from the shock of having their bridge decompressed (as Shinzon did). It's pretty clear he did NOT do this, and so the example works just fine.
If Picard gave them no breathing room, they would've been dead and unable to respond. Having a 10 foot hole in the bridge as you're getting destroyed is as you'd say, "a distinction without a difference".

As pointed out earlier, if they have enough time to respond, they'd target the correct ship and the Stargazer would've been destroyed.

newtype_alpha wrote:
 Yeah, he had a HUGE grudge against the Borg. I'd imagine he wouldn't like the Ferengi either. But, he managed to stay an effective Captain from "BOBW" to "First Contact".
Arguably, Bok managed to stay pretty effective in the nine years since the death of his son. That's the equivalency you're missing: Bok isn't trying to murder Picard, just hurt him in the same way HE was hurt.
Bok isn't trying to kill him outright, no. However getting the E-D to do it is rather fitting as it would've represented his son firing on the right target. In anycase, the first time around there was no way Bok could hurt Picard the same way he was hurt. Picard had no son to be killed. Controlling Picard to kill other Starfleet officers isn't equivalent to the same hurt.

newtype_alpha wrote:
 I rule out that possibility because there are enough episodes in TNG that have a sublight E-D detecting an incoming Warp speed ship which indicate FTL sensors. Heck there are also episodes where a ship (or ships) being chased KNOW that they are being chased by other ships at Warp and if they were limited to LS/STL sensors that would be impossible.
Here's a math problem for you: if you're moving through space at warp nine, and you're being chased by another ship at warp nine, what is the relative velocity between your two ships?
Oh that's simple. The LS sensors on the ship being chased wouldn't be able to get a passive reflection from the chasing ships and any active pulse it sends out backwards would never return.

I think you see how untenable having LS sensors in Trek is.

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