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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: Was the ending Deus Ex Machina?
Yes 24 37.50%
No 40 62.50%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 9 2012, 08:06 PM   #151
Christopher
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

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Honestly it I'd wonder why the Dominion didn't try and destroy the wormhole from the other side after that debacle.
Because it was their only way to the Alpha Quadrant. Without it, all their soldiers and Vorta and undercover Founders on the AQ side would've been completely cut off. It would've meant abandoning the conquest and everyone involved with it. Not only would the Dominion have been reluctant to admit total defeat like that after a single setback, but the Founders would never have been willing to abandon fellow Changelings in that way. (Well, except for that time they sent a hundred of their infants out into the wilderness unprotected, something that's always been hard to reconcile with the rest of what we know about them.)

So even after what happened, they still absolutely needed the wormhole to be intact. They couldn't go through it at the time, but destroying it was simply not an option. They were just biding their time and hoping they could find a way to restore safe passage.
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Old November 9 2012, 11:59 PM   #152
Vanyel
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Destroying the Wormhole could have been a morale buster for Sisko. It might have turned the Bajorans against the Federation, since all they would be hearing is that the Wormhole was destroyed by the Founders because of Sisko. The loss of their gods can have had big affects on the Bajorans. And if you keep telling a lie over and over eventually enough people will come to believe it.

However, it was always my impression that the Prophets weren't letting anything of the Dominion through. The Wormhole just wouldn't open on their side.
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Old November 10 2012, 12:13 AM   #153
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Vanyel wrote: View Post
Destroying the Wormhole could have been a morale buster for Sisko. It might have turned the Bajorans against the Federation, since all they would be hearing is that the Wormhole was destroyed by the Founders because of Sisko. The loss of their gods can have had big affects on the Bajorans. And if you keep telling a lie over and over eventually enough people will come to believe it.
But how would that have helped the Founders in any way if, by destroying the wormhole -- their only way of reaching the Alpha Quadrant -- they gave up any hope of conquering, or even being relevant to, that quadrant at all? That's the dealbreaker. Destroying the wormhole would've meant forfeiting the war. The Alpha Q. side could've benefitted from destroying the wormhole because it would've protected them from the invaders. But the Dominion were the invaders. They started the war. They needed the wormhole in order to win it.
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Old November 10 2012, 12:46 AM   #154
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
Destroying the Wormhole could have been a morale buster for Sisko. It might have turned the Bajorans against the Federation, since all they would be hearing is that the Wormhole was destroyed by the Founders because of Sisko. The loss of their gods can have had big affects on the Bajorans. And if you keep telling a lie over and over eventually enough people will come to believe it.
But how would that have helped the Founders in any way if, by destroying the wormhole -- their only way of reaching the Alpha Quadrant -- they gave up any hope of conquering, or even being relevant to, that quadrant at all? That's the dealbreaker. Destroying the wormhole would've meant forfeiting the war. The Alpha Q. side could've benefitted from destroying the wormhole because it would've protected them from the invaders. But the Dominion were the invaders. They started the war. They needed the wormhole in order to win it.
They needed the Wormhole to win the war quickly. Otherwise The Dominion were making ships and growing Jem'Hadar faster than the Klingons and Federation could build ships and train crews. I believe those reason were cited by the Romulans for not joining the Federation-Klingon Alliance.
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Old November 10 2012, 12:51 AM   #155
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Vanyel wrote: View Post
They needed the Wormhole to win the war quickly. Otherwise The Dominion were making ships and growing Jem'Hadar faster than the Klingons and Federation could build ships and train crews. I believe those reason were cited by the Romulans for not joining the Federation-Klingon Alliance.
You're talking about the agents of the Dominion who were operating within the Alpha Quadrant. I'm talking about the Dominion itself, the government that sent them to our quadrant. It's like the difference between an American combat unit in the Pacific in WWII vs. the Roosevelt administration. The Vorta and Founders in the AQ were just the advance forces acting on behalf of the actual Dominion back in the Gamma Quadrant, a Dominion whose goal was to establish control over the Federation and its neighbors. If the wormhole were destroyed, maybe the Dominion forces in the AQ could've continued their conquest, but to what purpose? The actual Dominion itself, the Gamma Quadrant government that started the war in the first place, would've been completely deprived of any possible way of winning it.
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Old November 10 2012, 01:19 AM   #156
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
They needed the Wormhole to win the war quickly. Otherwise The Dominion were making ships and growing Jem'Hadar faster than the Klingons and Federation could build ships and train crews. I believe those reason were cited by the Romulans for not joining the Federation-Klingon Alliance.
You're talking about the agents of the Dominion who were operating within the Alpha Quadrant. I'm talking about the Dominion itself, the government that sent them to our quadrant. It's like the difference between an American combat unit in the Pacific in WWII vs. the Roosevelt administration. The Vorta and Founders in the AQ were just the advance forces acting on behalf of the actual Dominion back in the Gamma Quadrant, a Dominion whose goal was to establish control over the Federation and its neighbors. If the wormhole were destroyed, maybe the Dominion forces in the AQ could've continued their conquest, but to what purpose? The actual Dominion itself, the Gamma Quadrant government that started the war in the first place, would've been completely deprived of any possible way of winning it.
The Founders are ageless.

Also it seems like they do have ways of traveling faster than what was depicted. Odo may have inadvertently traveled through the Wormhole and reached the Alpha Quadrant, but at least one of the other "hundred" made it to the Alpha Quadrant as well.

The Founders in The Gama Quadrant would have know of the victory, in time. And what meaning does time have to those who are ageless?
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Old November 10 2012, 02:21 AM   #157
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Look. The Dominion had absolutely no incentive to destroy the wormhole. Its continued existence posed no threat to them; at worst, they couldn't go through it to carry on their war effort, but it didn't do any harm to the Dominion itself. And if they could clear up the problem that kept them from going through, then it would be invaluable for their continued attempts at conquest. Destroying it would not have benefitted them in any possible way and would in fact have worked against their long-term goals.

I mean, come on, that's the whole reason Changeling Bashir took steps to make sure Starfleet couldn't destroy the wormhole!
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Old November 10 2012, 02:25 AM   #158
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Time is still time, even if the Founders themselves are ageless. It would have taken them decades just to make it back to Cardassian space without the wormhole, and there's a lot of different folks in the AQ that we don't know about, so it would take even longer. And the whole time the Feds and Friends would be advancing in tech (Voyager itself would bring the Feds years, if not decades, ahead of where they were before), while the Dominion fleet would just be traveling.
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Old November 10 2012, 02:46 AM   #159
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

If Earth was under Federation control, one starship, no matter its power, could have been a threat to the Dominion.

And aren't we way off on a tangent now?

That's all I gotta say about that.
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Old November 10 2012, 02:53 AM   #160
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
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So while the Prophets were set up from the start of the series, they weren't in the Dominion war story arc until this ep.
And, of course, the Prophets couldn't have been included in the Dominion War story arc until the episode, because until that episode the wormhole was mined, and the Dominion controlled the station. How could the Prophets/Wormhole Aliens have been included in the war arc before "Sacrifice of Angels"?
Sisko could've asked them to stop the Dominion ships from forming a foothold in the AQ.
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Old November 10 2012, 03:12 AM   #161
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Look. The Dominion had absolutely no incentive to destroy the wormhole. Its continued existence posed no threat to them; at worst, they couldn't go through it to carry on their war effort, but it didn't do any harm to the Dominion itself. And if they could clear up the problem that kept them from going through, then it would be invaluable for their continued attempts at conquest. Destroying it would not have benefitted them in any possible way and would in fact have worked against their long-term goals.

I mean, come on, that's the whole reason Changeling Bashir took steps to make sure Starfleet couldn't destroy the wormhole!
It had every reason to. The Prophets destroyed nearly three thousand ships. That's every reason for massive retaliation alone. Not to mention as things stood with the Prophets, the Dominion couldn't use the wormhole, but the Federation could. So why would they even think of allowing their enemies even a POSSIBLE tactical advantage like that?

Sure, they have forces in the Alpha Quadrant but they're quite self-sufficent as proven in the early season 7 arc when Dukat collapsed the wormhole. They didn't just fold up and die, they kept on going. It stands to reason the Dominion is expanding in the Gamma Quadrant at a steady pace, so too would the Alpha Quadrant Dominion and eventually they'd link up.

And if the Alpha Quadrant Dominion loses the war? Well then they have at least fifty years to prepare for a powerful and hostile power. As it stands NOT collapsing it was a worst case scenario for them as they lost anyways and Federation can attack them anytime they want.
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Old November 10 2012, 03:49 AM   #162
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Zombie Redshirt wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Look. The Dominion had absolutely no incentive to destroy the wormhole. Its continued existence posed no threat to them; at worst, they couldn't go through it to carry on their war effort, but it didn't do any harm to the Dominion itself. And if they could clear up the problem that kept them from going through, then it would be invaluable for their continued attempts at conquest. Destroying it would not have benefitted them in any possible way and would in fact have worked against their long-term goals.

I mean, come on, that's the whole reason Changeling Bashir took steps to make sure Starfleet couldn't destroy the wormhole!
It had every reason to. The Prophets destroyed nearly three thousand ships. That's every reason for massive retaliation alone. Not to mention as things stood with the Prophets, the Dominion couldn't use the wormhole, but the Federation could. So why would they even think of allowing their enemies even a POSSIBLE tactical advantage like that?
But to destroy the wormhole means the Dominion would be making sure they could NEVER get any more reinforcements. As long as the wormhole was still there, they still had a chance of being able to do SOMETHING to get more ships.

Sure, they have forces in the Alpha Quadrant but they're quite self-sufficent as proven in the early season 7 arc when Dukat collapsed the wormhole. They didn't just fold up and die, they kept on going. It stands to reason the Dominion is expanding in the Gamma Quadrant at a steady pace, so too would the Alpha Quadrant Dominion and eventually they'd link up.
So they don't need to destroy the wormhole. The Feds have enough on their plate so they aren't going to be sending fleets through the wormhole to destroy the Doms in the Gamma quadrant.

And if the Alpha Quadrant Dominion loses the war? Well then they have at least fifty years to prepare for a powerful and hostile power. As it stands NOT collapsing it was a worst case scenario for them as they lost anyways and Federation can attack them anytime they want.
But the Dominion was convinced that they would win.

And anyway, why would they send a fleet to destroy the wormhole? It would take ships away from defence lines (weakening their position), send them to one of the most heavily defended outposts in the Federation and anyway, if the Prophets stopped them once, why would the Dominion think they could destroy the wormhole at all?
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Old November 10 2012, 04:24 AM   #163
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Zombie Redshirt wrote: View Post
It had every reason to. The Prophets destroyed nearly three thousand ships. That's every reason for massive retaliation alone.
Not if it means shooting yourself in the foot in the process. If there are enemy troops holding a bridge that you absolutely need intact because it's the only way to supply your invasion force on the other side, you'd be a total idiot to blow up the bridge, because you'd be damaging your own cause. No, you'd find some way to get rid of the enemy troops while leaving the bridge intact so that your guys could still use it.


Not to mention as things stood with the Prophets, the Dominion couldn't use the wormhole, but the Federation could. So why would they even think of allowing their enemies even a POSSIBLE tactical advantage like that?
You're making the mistake of assuming that the two sides were equal. The Dominion has been a force of conquest in the Gamma Quadrant for a couple of thousand years, IIRC, and is far more aggressive than the Federation. Logically, it would be a vastly larger and stronger power. I mean, think about it. An empire built on force and intimidation couldn't survive if it sent all its military forces off to the other side of the galaxy. Its people would revolt and the empire would fall apart, or else its neighboring enemies would invade and overthrow it. Therefore, logically, we must conclude that the majority of the Dominion's forces were still in the Gamma Quadrant maintaining control of their home territory, that they only sent a portion through to conquer Alpha. Yet that small portion was so powerful that even the alliance of the three mightiest states in the region was in serious danger of defeat at its hands.

So there's a fundamental imbalance of power here in the Dominion's favor. The AQ powers weren't that much of a threat even if they did send forces through.


Sure, they have forces in the Alpha Quadrant but they're quite self-sufficent as proven in the early season 7 arc when Dukat collapsed the wormhole. They didn't just fold up and die, they kept on going. It stands to reason the Dominion is expanding in the Gamma Quadrant at a steady pace, so too would the Alpha Quadrant Dominion and eventually they'd link up.
Maybe. But we mustn't make the mistake of assuming the Founders think like humans. The unity of the Link is everything to them. They care more about maintaining their connections to one another than they do about anything else, even galactic conquest -- which is why Odo was able to convince them to end the war by agreeing to return home and stay with them (along with curing their disease). I just don't see them jumping to a plan that would mean deliberately stranding their own people in hostile territory. Sure, they live long and could eventually make their way back home -- but only if they didn't get killed by the enemy before then. And without reinforcements from home, that fate became more likely. As I said, they'd investigate all other possible options for restoring safe passage through the wormhole before they'd consider destroying it.

Besides, isn't it a moot argument? As I've already mentioned a couple of times, the Changeling Bashir sabotaged Sisko's plan to collapse the wormhole and instead made the wormhole so stable that it became impossible for the Federation to destroy it. So what makes you think it would've been any more possible for the Dominion to destroy it? Sure, maybe they had some extra superscience the Federation didn't, but we don't know that. It's kind of a waste to argue the strategic value of a choice that, for all we know, was not even on the table.
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Old November 10 2012, 07:51 AM   #164
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

I don't think there was a significant imbalance of power as you say. During the episode, and possibly elsewhere in the series, Dukat occasionally made remarks that strongly implied he sought to challenge the Dominion one day, and regarded the Cardassian Union's joining of the Dominion as temporary. If the Dominion really were vastly more powerful than the Federation, which the Cardassian Union couldn't seriously challenge on its own, then Dukat would have known this and would never have thought the Cardassian Union capable of challenging the Dominion. Dukat was many things, but he wasn't psychotic (well, not that severely, anyways).
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Old November 10 2012, 02:59 PM   #165
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Dukat was always a megalomaniac, or at least a clinical narcissist. Think about it. After decades of being hated by the Bajorans and being forced to give up the planet due to intractable, violent resistance, Dukat still believed he could convince the Bajoran people to love him and be grateful for his benevolence. He always had an unrealistic sense of his own ability to triumph.

And who's to say he really understood how big and powerful the Dominion was? They may have misled him on that point.

Besides, one person's subjective opinion doesn't do anything to change the factors I mentioned before. They wouldn't have sent more than a limited percentage of their forces to conquer a faraway territory, and that limited percentage was more than a match for the UFP, Klingons, and Romulans combined. As the recent presidential election showed, all the opinions in the world can't outweigh simple arithmetic.
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